I’m fine with prayer as communion or contemplation or meditation but what does it mean to pray for someone else?
IMHO, what you’re really praying for is for God to be present with and in them in their hour of need. God’s presence can be a pretty powerful thing in and of itself, so I’m not saying that intercessory prayer can’t make a difference that winds up partly taking the form of some good outcome as we understand such things, because it’s my belief that it certainly can. But if we view the goal of intercessory prayer as being certain measurable results, then we’re barking up the wrong tree. God’s not our pet God.
RTF’s nailed it exactly.
Bricker:
Then Diogenese
Thanks for asking this question - it was my reaction to reading Bricker’s description as well.
This is especially relevant, since the question in the OP was about the Cardinal asking us to ‘pray for the Pope’. Does this mean we are praying for god to help the Pope, or praying because the Pope cannot.
Isn’t there an implication here that God will be “with” somebody if we pray but will not be if we don’t pray? Why would God change his actions based on prayer?
Well, C.S. Lewis said, "Prayer is central to our lives because it reaches into the very core of our being, into the heart of human existence. " For the thoughtful Christian, prayer is the act of supplication, contemplation, and union with God that is described in the Apostle’s Creed as “the communion of saints.” In this view, when the faithful pray fore the Pope, they are not asking God to act in a particular way; instead they are offering their love and their agreement that God’s will be done.
Of course, the previous comments only hold for the intelligent Christian; the vast majority (like the ones you find at the RaptureReady board) are no different from cargo cult worshippers begging largesse from John Frum. For them prayer is magic, petitioning a vengeful deity to avert his wrath and grant them boons.
For what it’s worth, I didn’t start the thread as flame bait, I was truly curious why a high ranking church official could honestly ask the rank and file for prayers for the Pope. Certainly the cardinal would regard the Pope as having some special status with the next level - he must be convinced that the RCC is the one true religion. If there is an insult implied, it’s because it seems to me that there is a whole lot hypocracy going on if the Pope, fer crying out loud, needs intercession with God.
I thought the normal reaction of theists to a situation they cant change is to pray… still I kind of agree with the OP. If your praying for a faster death and less suffering… it nasty… if your praying to extend his life… your just keeping the suffering going on longer.
I say the old geezer’s time is run out. Just hope someone more reasonable takes over. Not much chance…
Still keeping him “working” is tantamount of abusing an old man.
Why? Its absolute, unmuddled, and universal Catholic doctrine that NO ONE, ever, period, save Jesus and Mary, are without sin. Even the most holy Pope needs some help. Even the greatest Saint needs prayer. People become holy not because they have grown beyond prayer, but because they recognize they need it.
Its his choice. Go screw with your own religion, if you have one.
Must we always be hounded by people with their mundane political doctrine?
God’s Answer: Yes.
Certainly you haven’t caught on to RCC teaching then…even though several posters have emphasized that the pontiff is not more “deserving” of prayers than Aunt Ethel.
The cardinal is in a sense appealing to the Catholic “family” or “community” for prayers. It’s not that different from appeals made on these very boards for prayers and good thoughts for a member or friend of a board member.
I think, at least that I’ve caught on to RCC teaching reasonably well - I entered a Jesuit High School, after eight years in Catholic grammar school, left four years later and was completely convinced that the whole thing was a massive fraud. This “pray for the Pope” thing strikes me as another way to keep the rank and file convinced that they are part of a great spiritual community instead of suckers that keep priests, bishops, cardinals, and yes, even the pope fed, housed, and ego stroked.
You are right, the pope is no more or less deserving of prayer than anyone else, but damn, if he’s not ‘right with God’, who is?
Oh well… it doesn’t work anyway. He’s gonna linger for a while in a senile fog, sink slowly into a coma, stay awhile on life support, then check out like most old folks. Sorry, I wish there was a better way.
Ahh the real purpose of the OP.
Why didn’t you say so at the beginning and save us all the trouble of trying to explain the notion of prayer. :rolleyes:
On the contrary, I’d say you are completely baffled by RCC teaching.
No human being is without sin, and therefore “right with God” in a complete sense. This is a key element of RCC teaching, and, as I say, it’s clear you don’t grasp that.
Of course. He’s a human being. Mary was assumed bodily into Heaven; it’s unlikely that John Paul II will be.
But please note that the forum is “Great Debates” - and I empahsize the ‘debate’ portion of the title. You may argue that RCC teaching is flawed; you may not continue to prop up strawmen and knock them down. In other words, before bashing the faith, understand it.
Or, preferably, decline the impulse to comment upon it.
- Rick
Suppose I say aloud to myself, “Man, I wish my mother had better health than she does.” Further, suppose I say it aloud when a friend is over. A wealthy friend that could pay for better medical care? Suppose my friend was actually a doctor.
At what point does expressing concern for one person become a request of another? This is how this atheist thinks of prayer: being open with God about your good desires, and confessing your bad ones. Letting it out in the open between you, just like telling your close friend how you feel about touchy subjects can serve a purpose and yet is never a request, even if you indicate you want events to be different, and even if your friend could do something about it.
What this has to do with Catholocism is probably not much, but I don’t see why prayer is considered synonymous with formal requests. We humans express our desires all the time without every having the expectation of having them fulfilled. Why would this suddenly change because we share a moment with god? ::shrug::