# I propose that we end all wars **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 14, 2012, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-propose-that-we-end-all-wars/615780 "2012-03-14T20:08:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-propose-that-we-end-all-wars/615780/41 "2012-03-15T20:27:49Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The problem is that if everyone uses the phrase as a rhetorical flourish, it loses its punch when it _is_ justfied as a metaphor. Except the OP is trying to claim that virtually any use of it is wrong, rather than that we should restrict it to outright, blatant assaults on certain things. In order to make that claim he is, ironically, misusing language to boost his rhetoric, while claiming to be against such dirty tricks. War does not just mean a conflict where people are killed by the thousands, or what have you. Nor would anybody who hears a term like “the war on poverty” think that the US government was advocating carpet bombing poor urban districts. [The word “war” can and does entail conflict itself, even if it is not of a military nature.](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/war) > [@](#): > > a : a state of hostility, conflict, or antagonism b : a struggle or competition between opposing forces or for a particular end \ \ That the use of the term should be restricted to areas where it’s most relevant is something I wouldn’t dispute. The idea that it’s never appropriate to describe political action in battlefield terms, especially in situations like the systemic assault on biology-in-the-classroom or global-climate-change-in-the-government, is an absurdity. I’d also note that his linguistic gaming in an attempt to handwave away the recent spate of legislation aimed at women is… transparent. It’d be like saying that of course literacy tests weren’t part of a campaign against blacks. Why, they were just pro-literacy! Now, if we can get back to ways to deny women healthcare… ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-propose-that-we-end-all-wars/615780/42 "2012-03-15T20:53:51Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > I’d also note that his linguistic gaming in an attempt to handwave away the recent spate of legislation aimed at women is… transparent. I’m not aware of any spate of legislaiton aimed at women. As for your claim that since some on the right don’t believe that the theory of evolution is true or that humans are causing global warming, there is “a concerted effort from some-but-not-all on the right to combat science”, it’s obviously wrong. If a person does not believe in those two things, said person disagrees with two scientific conclusions, which is obviously very different from combating science as a concept. > [@](#): > > The word “war” can and does entail conflict itself, even if it is not of a military nature. As originally defined, war meant military conflict. Then people like Marx started using notions like “class warfare” for emotional manipulation, then politicians confused things further with “war on poverty”, “war on drugs”, and so forth. My point is that right now, the use of war terminology to describe anything and everything is utterly useless and misleading. (It also may contribute to desensitizing people to the fact that the United States is currently waging several of those old-fashioned wars that actually involve killing people. You know, like [Barack Obama having the Air Force drop pellets bombs on buildings full of women and children](http://www.salon.com/2012/03/14/obamas_personal_role_in_a_journalists_imprisonment/singleton/). But I guess that ripping the bodies of civilian women to shreds is peaceful; if he sold them an insurance policy that didn’t cover birth control, _that_ would be an act of war, right?) ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-propose-that-we-end-all-wars/615780/43 "2012-03-15T21:39:34Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I’m not aware of any spate of legislaiton aimed at women. Odd, considering that your OP linked to a website that mentioned a bit. You are, of course, engaging in the sort of linguistic trickery that I just commented on, of course. Claiming that laws aimed at women’s health aren’t really because they target health care is just about as savory as claiming that literacy tests at the polls weren’t aimed at blacks, because after all they targeted literacy. > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > As for your claim that since some on the right don’t believe that the theory of evolution is true or that humans are causing global warming, there is “a concerted effort from some-but-not-all on the right to combat science”, it’s obviously wrong. More rhetorical distortion on your part. Disbelieving in something does not mean you can’t violently oppose it. The US thought that communism was an invalid political strategy, but only an idiot would claim that the Cold War never happened. Likewise, many Republicans believe that evolution either shouldn’t be taught or should be taught alongside poorly disguised Christian creationism. The fact that they “disbelieve” does not mean they’re still not attacking science. Likewise, your claim that they merely disbelieve bits of science is utter nonsense and again you prove that despite your drive to declare metaphors for war off limits, your argument is fundamentally based on linguistic trickery. Opposing the cornerstones of modern biology and the most well supported conclusion in the history of climatology does indeed mark someone as being anti-science, especially since opposition to the fact of evolution is often based in religion and opposition to the fact of climate change is often based in reverence for big business. The opposition to biology and climatology is, in point of fact, an attempt to disregard the scientific method itself when it produces claims which are at odds with personal politics and religion. That is just about as anti-science as you can get. Your argument is as intellectually bankrupt as claiming that someone who disbelieves in germ theory and instead advocates that diseases are caused by impure thoughts is not at all anti-biology. After all, they’ve just got a disagreement going on. > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > As originally defined, war meant military conflict. Then people like Marx started using notions like “class warfare” for emotional manipulation, Actually, your invocation of Marx is, itself, a non-fact designed for emotional impact. The use of “war” to describe conflict in western literature goes back _at least_ as far as Thomas Hobbes’ “Bellum omnium contra omnes”. And that was in the 1600’s. It is nonsensical for you to claim that a metaphor which has been in common use for _at least_ nearly four centuries, and which is readily understood by virtually everybody who hears it, must be discarded. > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > [Barack Obama having the Air Force drop pellets bombs on buildings full of women and children](http://www.salon.com/2012/03/14/obamas_personal_role_in_a_journalists_imprisonment/singleton/). What’s that you were arguing about emotional manipulation? I was trying focusing on a discussion about metaphors in public speech and then some guy posted a link about pellet bombs killing women and children. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2012, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-propose-that-we-end-all-wars/615780/44 "2012-03-16T01:33:54Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > In the current case, I think that the use of “war on \_\_\_\_\_\_\_” metaphors is often both a fallacy and an appeal to emotions. The appeal to emotions seems clear. A real war kills thousands or millions of people, injures others, wrecks nations and destroys live. To suggest that some garden-variety piece of legislation that shifts money around or rearranges priorities is a “war” is an attempt to attach our emotional opposition to massive carnage and destruction to something that doesn’t deserve such strong opposition. I disagree. The biggest “war on” that we’ve got right now is the War on Terror. There’s also the War on Drugs, ongoing, and the War on Poverty, pretty much abandoned. “War on” can certainly have positive connotations and is used to attach our emotional excitement about a coordinated effort sometimes, just as it’s sometimes used to attach an emotional abhorrence to a coordinated effort sometimes. So yes, the phrase does have emotional overtones. Unless you’re proposing that we remove all rhetoric with emotional overtones, I think it’s a silly proposal. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2012, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-propose-that-we-end-all-wars/615780/45 "2012-03-16T04:21:38Z")
> [@Semjaazah](#): > > (I.E. that using a moderately tangential issue to spout political beliefs is morally bakrupt.) Responding to the OP isn’t hijacking. > [@xtisme](#): > > War is just an extension of politics, or diplomacy by other means… The usual translation of ‘war is the continuation of policy by other means’ is a very loose translation of what Clausewitz actually wrote. Keegan noted in [A History of Warfare](http://www.amazon.com/History-Warfare-John-Keegan/dp/0679730826#reader_0679730826) that he actually wrote war is the continuation ‘of political intercourse’ (_des politischen Verkehs_) ‘with the intermingling of other means’ (_mit Einmischung anderer Mitten_), a much more subtle and complex idea than the normal (mis)translation. That’s a hijack. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2012, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-propose-that-we-end-all-wars/615780/46 "2012-03-16T16:31:14Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Responding to the OP isn’t hijacking. I’m also amused by the claim that it would have been “morally bankrupt” to bring up a tangential political issue in a thread. Boy, does the Dope sure have a lot of amoral fucks, turns out… ---
**Author:** ![Semjaazah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b19c9b/32.png) [@Semjaazah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Semjaazah)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2012, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-propose-that-we-end-all-wars/615780/47 "2012-03-16T16:39:16Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > I’m also amused by the claim that it would have been “morally bankrupt” to bring up a tangential political issue in a thread. Boy, does the Dope sure have a lot of amoral fucks, turns out… Boo-hoo, stop whining about something that was said 2 days ago. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2012, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-propose-that-we-end-all-wars/615780/48 "2012-03-16T16:41:46Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I’m not aware of any spate of legislaiton aimed at women. Have you been living under a rock for the last month? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2012, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-propose-that-we-end-all-wars/615780/49 "2012-03-16T16:43:49Z")
[QUOTE=Dissonance] The usual translation of ‘war is the continuation of policy by other means’ is a very loose translation of what Clausewitz actually wrote. Keegan noted in A History of Warfare that he actually wrote war is the continuation ‘of political intercourse’ (des politischen Verkehs) ‘with the intermingling of other means’ (mit Einmischung anderer Mitten), a much more subtle and complex idea than the normal (mis)translation. [/QUOTE] That’s why I tossed in the diplomacy part and said it was a paraphrase. It’s a LOOSE paraphrase, but I wasn’t going for specifics there. Now THAT is a hijack. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2012, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-propose-that-we-end-all-wars/615780/50 "2012-03-16T16:46:31Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > That’s why I tossed in the diplomacy part and said it was a paraphrase. It’s a LOOSE paraphrase, but I wasn’t going for specifics there. > > Now THAT is a hijack. > > -XT I propose that we end all hijacks. I’m tired of the rhetorical tactic of labeling any deviation from the original discussion as a “hijack”. Expanding the discussion isn’t an act of violent mass kidnapping. Pretending that it is one is a vapid, pointless way of arguing. It should join the “Well that’s what Hitler would think” line on the list of things that are immediately dismissed, as indicating that the speaker has no meaningful argument to make. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2012, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-propose-that-we-end-all-wars/615780/51 "2012-03-16T16:48:37Z")
I’m taking this thread to Cuba and there is nothing you all can do about it… -XT ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2012, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-propose-that-we-end-all-wars/615780/52 "2012-03-16T16:56:12Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’m tired of the rhetorical tactic of labeling any deviation from the original discussion as a “hijack”. Expanding the discussion isn’t an act of violent mass kidnapping. Pretending that it is one is a vapid, pointless way of arguing. It should join the “Well that’s what Hitler would think” line on the list of things that are immediately dismissed, as indicating that the speaker has no meaningful argument to make. Yes, but in order to hijack something you just have to subvert its use. Hijacking a radio station’s signal, for example, wouldn’t involve any kidnapping (most likely), let alone mass and/or violent kidnapping. It also would, unfortunately, also not result in any Cuban cigars. In fact, I’d argue that unless you’re prepared to kidnap massive numbers of people and/or bring me Cuban cigars, that your argument should be dismissed as if you were Hitler’s dog. ---
**Author:** ![Deegeea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Deegeea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deegeea)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2012, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-propose-that-we-end-all-wars/615780/53 "2012-03-16T16:57:53Z")
The various things being called “wars on” in this fairly recent phenomenon (as well explained in the Washington Post article linked above) are clearly not wars, but also clearly not simply differences of opinion. They are at best “Great Debates” (as epitomized in the content of this message board) and more typically they are propaganda campaigns. Propaganda campaigns are often associated with wars. I can see how the metaphor got such currency. Propaganda campaigns, when successful, can go very dark places. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2012, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-propose-that-we-end-all-wars/615780/54 "2012-03-16T17:11:12Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Yes, but in order to hijack something you just have to subvert its use. Only in a metaphorical sense. The word’s literal definition is “Illegally seize (an aircraft, ship, or vehicle) in transit and force it to go to a different destination or use it for one’s own purposes.” And if one may use “hijack” in a metaphorical sense, one may as well use “war” in a metaphorical sense, and at that point we’re all just like Hitler. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2012, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-propose-that-we-end-all-wars/615780/55 "2012-03-16T17:16:36Z")
Look, I think all of us can agree that metaphors are pretty bad, similes are pretty awesome, and Hitler had a lovely singing voice. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2012, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-propose-that-we-end-all-wars/615780/56 "2012-03-16T20:30:02Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I propose that we end all hijacks. I second the motion and would like to see it taken even further than that, we must take decisive, agressive action to prevent hijacking. What’s the word I’m looking for? Ah yes, a War on Hijacking. I mean, it’s what Hitler would have done. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2012, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-propose-that-we-end-all-wars/615780/57 "2012-03-16T23:09:06Z")
Nobody moves or the hamster gets it… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2012, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-propose-that-we-end-all-wars/615780/58 "2012-03-16T23:53:29Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Nobody moves or the hamster gets it… Did you know that hamsters were originally domesticated in Syria? Okay, sorry for the -um -dammit! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2012, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-propose-that-we-end-all-wars/615780/59 "2012-03-17T01:47:33Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > What about Drug Nabobs, Drug Neguses, or Drug First Citizens? 😉 Don’t go down that road! It’s satrap! I’ve waited quite some time for this opportunity. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2012, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-propose-that-we-end-all-wars/615780/60 "2012-03-17T01:50:17Z")
Your hijack is morally bankrupt! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-propose-that-we-end-all-wars/615780.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-propose-that-we-end-all-wars/615780.md?page=4)