# I refused to sign the banks nosey form. Now what? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 11, 2018, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-refused-to-sign-the-banks-nosey-form-now-what/817709 "2018-07-11T11:42:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2018, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-refused-to-sign-the-banks-nosey-form-now-what/817709/81 "2018-07-14T14:45:31Z")
The ultimate sanction for not going along with the bank’s nosy regulations would be that they decide they no longer want your business (because they’re afraid they’ll be risking a $2 billion fine just like the HSBC) and close all of your accounts; that actually happened to some former HSBC customers. As long as that hasn’t happened, you’re OK, and good for you for not filling out unnecessary extra paperwork. Now one can imagine a dystopian cyberpunk future where nobody accepts cash for anything and all banks have no choice but to conform to surveillance-state regulations, i.e., the polar opposite of the legendary Swiss banking secrecy regulations where everybody minds their own business absent an actual criminal complaint. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2018, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-refused-to-sign-the-banks-nosey-form-now-what/817709/82 "2018-07-14T19:25:51Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > The ultimate sanction for not going along with the bank’s nosy regulations would be that they decide they no longer want your business (because they’re afraid they’ll be risking a $2 billion fine just like the HSBC) and close all of your accounts; that actually happened to some former HSBC customers. As long as that hasn’t happened, you’re OK, and good for you for not filling out unnecessary extra paperwork. No, they might well have filed a SAR. A SAR can generate a investigation. Or even a audit. So, but being petty you could very well have gotten yourself into trouble. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2018, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-refused-to-sign-the-banks-nosey-form-now-what/817709/83 "2018-07-16T04:13:56Z")
All this is interesting. Now I understand why, when I went to my bank a week ago for two cashier’s checks, one quite large and the other comparatively tiny, I was informed that for the large one I had to have the payee name typed in by the bank, but for the smaller one could write it in myself. The teller didn’t ask me what the large check was for, but since the payee name contained the word “escrow” it was probably obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2018, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-refused-to-sign-the-banks-nosey-form-now-what/817709/84 "2018-07-16T05:01:05Z")
The OP should be thankful if nothing happens. > [@](#): > > Mary Ann Liegey, a retired teacher in Manhasset, N.Y., was shocked in March when she received a letter from her local parish: “Your $20 check payable to St. Mary’s Church…was returned due to Frozen/Blocked Account.” > > The 75-year-old Ms. Liegey discovered that Citigroup Inc. had blocked her checking and trust accounts after she didn’t respond to a notice asking her for personal information to verify the accounts—part of the bank’s efforts to comply with government-mandated rules referred to as “know your customer,” or KYC. [https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/rules-designed-to-catch-terrorists-cost-this-unsuspecting-customer-her-bank-account/ar-AAA1Lju?li](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/rules-designed-to-catch-terrorists-cost-this-unsuspecting-customer-her-bank-account/ar-AAA1Lju?li) ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2018, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-refused-to-sign-the-banks-nosey-form-now-what/817709/85 "2018-07-16T08:12:59Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > The OP should be thankful if nothing happens. It’s none of their bees wax what I’m doing with my own money. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2018, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-refused-to-sign-the-banks-nosey-form-now-what/817709/86 "2018-07-16T10:09:02Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > It’s none of their bees wax what I’m doing with my own money. The US government disagrees. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2018, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-refused-to-sign-the-banks-nosey-form-now-what/817709/87 "2018-07-16T11:26:52Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > The US government disagrees. That form they asked me to sign wasn’t from the government. What if I pull all my money out and say “I’m just not doing business with this bank anymore”. Would they get to know what I’m doing with the cash? What if I lie? Better yet, what if I change my mind? Am I guilty of perjury? What if I say I’m paying off a car and then don’t? We’re going to UAE in November and I’ll be withdrawing about 6K then. I will also refuse to sign that form. But I want to get a copy of it so I can post exactly what it says here. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2018, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-refused-to-sign-the-banks-nosey-form-now-what/817709/88 "2018-07-16T14:21:25Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > That form they asked me to sign wasn’t from the government. What if I pull all my money out and say “I’m just not doing business with this bank anymore”. Would they get to know what I’m doing with the cash? What if I lie? Better yet, what if I change my mind? Am I guilty of perjury? What if I say I’m paying off a car and then don’t? The point is, the banks are doing this to comply with government regulations. The banks don’t care what you are doing with your money, but they care that they take reasonable steps that the government is requiring. All banks will be asking these questions to some degree. Moving to a new bank isn’t going to get you out of doing this or something similar to this. You might buy some time switching banks, but until the law/regulations are changed the situation will persist. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2018, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-refused-to-sign-the-banks-nosey-form-now-what/817709/89 "2018-07-16T15:42:10Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > The reason for making a series of sub-threshold transactions? If they’re going for a felony conviction, they’ll need to prove your intent beyond a reasonable doubt. If you’re innocent, a few receipts or witness depositions in your defense will take care of this. > > There are endless legitimate reasons for large cash transactions. **this is why large cash transactions are absolutely legal.** … > > I agree that civil asset forfeiture laws have put too much discretion in the hands of authorities, … No disagreement from me. I don’t think a lot of what your government does to its citizens (and visitors) is totally in keeping with the constitution. However, as the old joke goes about arguing with police “you can beat the rap, but you can’t beat the ride…” The corollary for finance would be that the Treasury can freeze your accounts for the one to one thousand days plus it might take to determine what is going on, whether there are criminal or tax issues to solve, etc… They keep your accounts frozen while they investigate in deep detail the reasons for your cash activities. If you can think of a better anti-money-laundering system, the government is all ears. Until then, all large cash transactions are logged for possible future scrutiny. There are sufficiently few of these that they can be reliably reported and logged. Welcome to the 21st century. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2018, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-refused-to-sign-the-banks-nosey-form-now-what/817709/90 "2018-07-16T15:53:58Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > What if I lie? Better yet, what if I change my mind? Am I guilty of perjury? What if I say I’m paying off a car and then don’t? Aren’t you a police officer, or former police officer? I think you should know that intentionally misleading statements provided to the government on official matters are indeed punishable, but unintentionally misleading statements are not. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2018, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-refused-to-sign-the-banks-nosey-form-now-what/817709/91 "2018-07-16T16:33:10Z")
If you don’t want to fill out the form, you don’t have to. Then what happens next? One thing that can happen is the bank will fire you as a customer. But that’s not likely, because they want your money. So what will really happen is they’ll write that you refused to answer on the form they return to the Feds. And then it’s up to the Feds to decide what will happen. And that will depend on if you’d done this a dozen times. If you’ve done it a dozen times, then a big red flag pops up on somebody’s computer screen and they will investigate you for money laundering. If you’re just a guy who deals in cash a lot, then that investigation will go nowhere, and you might not even know it happened. Or you might find yourself in jail with your bank accounts frozen. That’s not very likely to happen if you’re just a guy who refused to fill out a form. But showing up on some federal agent’s computer screen is something with no upside. The best that could happen is nothing, the worst that could happen is jail and financial ruin. So you have to ask yourself what the purpose of refusing is. Do you think you’re going to send a message to the banks and the Feds? What message is that, exactly? And as for moving to another bank, you’re not going to find a bank in the United States that doesn’t keep track of suspicious cash activity for the Feds. I mean, they keep track of all transactions, the only reason they don’t bother asking invasive questions about the non-cash transactions is that they’ve got all that information recorded anyway, so they don’t need to ask you about them, they already know. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2018, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-refused-to-sign-the-banks-nosey-form-now-what/817709/92 "2018-07-16T16:38:46Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > That form they asked me to sign wasn’t from the government. What if I pull all my money out and say “I’m just not doing business with this bank anymore”. You might not be able to. After googling “wells fargo know your customer”, I found [this article:](https://bobsullivan.net/gotchas/wells-fargo-blocks-customer-account-when-she-refuses-to-reveal-details-about-retirement-savings-bank-says-its-just-following-the-rules/) > [@Bob Sullivan](#): > > Kristin Kalning called Wells Fargo bank with a simple issue last week — she wanted to change the mailing address on a small, decades-old IRA account. Instead, she was peppered with what she felt were overly aggressive questions about her personal financial situation, and told she couldn’t do anything with her money until she answered them. Kalning feels her money was being held hostage, and she was being held up for marketing information. The bank says it was just following regulations imposed on all brokers known as “Know Your Customer” rules. According to that article, experts not employed by Wells Fargo describe their freezing of the woman’s account as a severe overreach of KYC regulations. Bottom line, if privacy is important to you, you might consider changing banks - but before you do, talk to prospective banks and ask them detailed questions about how they handle specific transactions so that you’ll know beforehand which one can best meet your privacy needs (at least within the real constraints of KYC/AML laws). ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2018, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-refused-to-sign-the-banks-nosey-form-now-what/817709/93 "2018-07-16T16:43:41Z")
Actually, I’ve been guilty of money laundering on several occasions over the years. However, I discovered through experience that, if you just carefully smooth it flat and let it dry on its own, it is totally undamaged. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2018, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-refused-to-sign-the-banks-nosey-form-now-what/817709/94 "2018-07-16T18:31:56Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > I’d support a constitutional privacy amendment stating that the people have a right to deal in cash, and that possession of cash, in any amount, is not by itself probable cause of criminal activity. I understand the privacy aspect, but the fact is that possession of a large amount of cash is indeed suspicious. This is 2018. I rarely carry small or large amounts of cash. Everywhere I go, I can swipe a debit or credit card. Much easier for keeping track of budgeting and preventing theft. If I lose my credit card, I can have a new one overnighted to me and the old one is cancelled and useless to anyone. If I lose $5k in cash, it is simply gone with no way of retrieving it. Given the realities of this, why shouldn’t it be suspicious if you see a guy carrying $20k in cash? It’s not a slam dunk of guilt, but if you were a police officer, wouldn’t that cause you to investigate further? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2018, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-refused-to-sign-the-banks-nosey-form-now-what/817709/95 "2018-07-16T20:33:42Z")
> [@SmartAleq](#): > > All these dumbass rules are giving a huge pain in the ass to legal cannabis businesses. The federal government refuses to acknowledge that weed is legal in many states now, and refuses to allow cannabis businesses to use banks and credit card companies. So they have to deal in cash, no way around it. They have to keep enormous amounts of cash on premises, they have to make large transactions with it to keep, say, a dispensary stocked and the growers they pay in cash inherit the headache when they try to go deposit that cash to pay their fucking bills. > > The ostensible reasoning is to prevent money laundering, yet companies like HSBC get barely a slap on the wrist for outright laundering nearly a billion dollars in straight up cartel money. Which leads me to conclude that the “money laundering” excuse is basically just a smokescreen to hide the fact that what the PTB in the world want is a cashless society, where the banks have access to all the fees they want to charge and all it takes to completely break someone is about two keystrokes and hey presto, you’re destitute. The full surveillance state wants to know about every place you go, every dollar you spend and every relationship you have. Cash makes it harder to get that total surveillance. > > Plus it makes it easier for the cops to grab your assets and never give them back, like the ones who were just forced to return 20K they stole at a traffic stop to a stripper–you’d think the glitter all over the money would have tipped them off she wasn’t bullshitting about how she got the cash but you’d be wrong about that. She got her money back, but there are thousands who never did and never will. It’s not legal under Federal law and due to the supremacy clause that means it’s still 100% a crime to have a cannabis business, so it’s unsurprising entities tightly regulated by the Federal government aren’t wanting to deal too heavily with cannabis businesses. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2018, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-refused-to-sign-the-banks-nosey-form-now-what/817709/96 "2018-07-16T20:58:11Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Aren’t you a police officer, or former police officer? I think you should know that intentionally misleading statements provided to the government on official matters are indeed punishable, but unintentionally misleading statements are not. It wasn’t a government document. It didn’t even look very business like or official. As if someone just typed up a statement page on Word and Xeroxed it. Very ameaturish looking. I find it implausible that feds would find a couple grand taken out of an account once or twice a year suspect. I’m thinking it’s these banks being way over cautious. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2018, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-refused-to-sign-the-banks-nosey-form-now-what/817709/97 "2018-07-16T21:29:11Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > It wasn’t a government document. It didn’t even look very business like or official. As if someone just typed up a statement page on Word and Xeroxed it. Very ameaturish looking. > > I find it implausible that feds would find a couple grand taken out of an account once or twice a year suspect. I’m thinking it’s these banks being way over cautious. Sure, a couple grand taken out of an account one or twice a year isn’t suspicious. A couple grand taken out of an account every day would be suspicious. How can they discover that someone is taking out a couple grand in cash every day unless they record every time someone takes out a couple grand in cash? If they only record it when someone does it regularly, how and when do they start recording? The fourth or fifth time? How do they know it’s the fifth time if the other four times they didn’t record that you were taking out large amounts of cash, back when it wasn’t suspicious? Dealing with large amounts of cash is only suspicious when there is a pattern that doesn’t match. The only way they can detect the pattern is when they note down who is taking large amounts of cash, and when and why. That means they get that information every time someone takes large amounts of cash, even though getting large amounts of cash a couple of times isn’t suspicious. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2018, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-refused-to-sign-the-banks-nosey-form-now-what/817709/98 "2018-07-16T21:31:58Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > It wasn’t a government document. It didn’t even look very business like or official. As if someone just typed up a statement page on Word and Xeroxed it. Very ameaturish looking. > > I find it implausible that feds would find a couple grand taken out of an account once or twice a year suspect. I’m thinking it’s these banks being way over cautious. No, like we have said the Feds\* absolutely require \*that banks account fo any such cash transactions. Now, yes, it could have been a bank form. And the Feds do not require that you explain why. But the CTR cash transaction monitoring is absolutely, 100% a Federal requirement for ALL Banks and other financial institutions, including gold dealers, pawn shops, check cashers and casinos. Now, the CTR does not make you suspect. A SAR does. However, being unreasonable about a CTR can be a reason for filing a SAR. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2018, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-refused-to-sign-the-banks-nosey-form-now-what/817709/99 "2018-07-16T22:33:12Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No, like we have said the Feds\* absolutely require \*that banks account fo any such cash transactions. > > Now, yes, it could have been a bank form. And the Feds do not require that you explain why. > > But the CTR cash transaction monitoring is absolutely, 100% a Federal requirement for ALL Banks and other financial institutions, including gold dealers, pawn shops, check cashers and casinos. > > Now, the CTR does not make you suspect. A SAR does. However, being unreasonable about a CTR can be a reason for filing a SAR. Obviously I’m not a banking guy, but in general, asserting a right cannot act as probable cause for a search warrant, but a person like a police officer or a bank investigator can investigate harder if he wants. So, if a police officer knocks on your door and asks if you will allow him to search your house because he believes your vehicle was spotted running away from a bank robbery, you can tell him to piss off, but it is very likely that he may cast a wary eye at you, even though that would not enable him to get a search warrant. Is that similar to what you are saying? ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2018, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-refused-to-sign-the-banks-nosey-form-now-what/817709/100 "2018-07-16T22:41:44Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > I understand the privacy aspect, but the fact is that possession of a large amount of cash is indeed suspicious. This is 2018. I rarely carry small or large amounts of cash. Everywhere I go, I can swipe a debit or credit card. Much easier for keeping track of budgeting and preventing theft. > > If I lose my credit card, I can have a new one overnighted to me and the old one is cancelled and useless to anyone. If I lose $5k in cash, it is simply gone with no way of retrieving it. > > Given the realities of this, why shouldn’t it be suspicious if you see a guy carrying $20k in cash? It’s not a slam dunk of guilt, but if you were a police officer, wouldn’t that cause you to investigate further? OK, so $20,000 in cash is “suspicious” and a good police officer will “investigate further”. What does this investigation consist of? “Excuse me, sir, why do you have so much cash?” “I’d really rather not say, officer. Am I free to go?” Now what? Should the police officer have the power to detain the guy until he explains himself and his “suspicious” amount of cash to the officer’s satisfication? Should the police officer have a right to seize the money, and make the _guy_ prove the money isn’t “dirty”? Should the police officer have the power to search the guy’s car? To search the guy? (To do a cavity search?) To get a warrant and search the guy’s home? Absent some other facts (a report on the officer’s radio that someone robbed the First National Bank five minutes ago one block north of here and took exactly $20,000 in cash; or a large bag full of drugs sitting on the front seat of the car next to the bundle of money) what powers should a police officer have to “investigate further” in this situation? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-refused-to-sign-the-banks-nosey-form-now-what/817709.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-refused-to-sign-the-banks-nosey-form-now-what/817709.md?page=6)