# I Remember some were saying Election 2004 was stolen... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 6, 2005, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039 "2005-04-06T14:47:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/1 "2005-04-06T14:47:58Z")
I remember during the first few months after the election, some were saying there was strong evidence that it was stolen. But I haven’t heard anything about it in a while. Your opinions, please, on the credibility of such theories w.r.t. election 2004? I did find this, but haven’t read it: [http://electionarchive.org/ucvAnalysis/US/Exit\_Polls\_2004\_Edison-Mitofsky.pdf](http://electionarchive.org/ucvAnalysis/US/Exit_Polls_2004_Edison-Mitofsky.pdf) It is a document authored and endorsed by a bunch of PhDs in statistics and related fields, from good schools, saying the election was stolen. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/2 "2005-04-06T20:06:56Z")
[Remember this?](http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0828-08.htm) > [@](#): > > The head of a company vying to sell voting machines in Ohio told Republicans in a recent fund-raising letter that he is “committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president next year.” Sure sounds like he made good on his promise… ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/3 "2005-04-06T20:09:22Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > [Remember this?](http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0828-08.htm) > > Sure sounds like he made good on his promise… Yes, by legally lobbying for the President. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/4 "2005-04-06T21:49:34Z")
See also “A Corrupted Election,” by Steve Freeman and Josh Mittledorf, _In These Times,_ 2/15/05: [http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/a\_corrupted\_election/](http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/a_corrupted_election/). ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/5 "2005-04-06T22:01:26Z")
The OP links to nothing but a rehash of the ‘We need to trust the exit polls more than the votes’ argument. The argument was just as dumb when it was first shrieked out back in November. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2005, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/6 "2005-04-06T22:49:02Z")
My thoughts now are what they where then. There is no proof that the election was stolen, but due to fact that the new voting machines were made the way they where, there is no way to tell it wasn’t either, and anything the least bit suspicious has the hairs on the back of my neck standing up. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/7 "2005-04-07T00:47:58Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > The OP links to nothing but a rehash of the ‘We need to trust the exit polls more than the votes’ argument. The argument was just as dumb when it was first shrieked out back in November. Yeah, _everyone_ knows exit polls are useless; that’s why the Republicans didn’t bother to support [exit polls](http://www.guardian.co.uk/afghanistan/story/0,1284,1325025,00.html) for the recent Afghanistan elections, and why the Bush Administration dismissed their early predictions of victory for Hamid Karzai. \ Or are exit polls only “dumb” when they give results you dislike? ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/8 "2005-04-07T02:41:58Z")
I realize that ‘Afghanistan’ and ‘America’ both start with the same letter, but you know that circumstances in the two countries are different, right? Exit polls are certainly fine to get the gist of an election that isn’t going to come down the wire, but crying because it was off in some battleground states is just silly. Not that I expect better, but you guys need a new schtick; for how many more elections is OMG STOLENZ3D!! going to be your rallying cry? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/9 "2005-04-07T04:58:16Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > . . . for how many more elections is OMG STOLENZ3D!! going to be your rallying cry? As many as take place without an independently verifiable paper trail. That’s enough to raise justifiable objections all by itself, even without the electronic voting machines being supplied by a major Republican contributor. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/10 "2005-04-07T12:05:18Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > I realize that ‘Afghanistan’ and ‘America’ both start with the same letter, but you know that circumstances in the two countries are different, right? Exit polls are certainly fine to get the gist of an election that isn’t going to come down the wire, but crying because it was off in some battleground states is just silly. Not that I expect better, but you guys need a new schtick; for how many more elections is OMG STOLENZ3D!! going to be your rallying cry? Gee Brutus, it’s so paranoid of us to not trust the results of elections tabulated by voting machines which leave no paper trail, and made by a company (Diebold, Inc.) whose president pledged to deliver a state (just happened to be the state that turned the election) to Dubya. What paranoid freaks we are, eh? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/11 "2005-04-07T12:14:06Z")
Bless you, BrainGlutton, for the link to that excellent article. The most foolproof method of voting is paper ballots marked and counted by hand. Any technological advances from that improve speed of counting at the expense of accuracy and the ability to audit and validate the result. I think enough is enough, let’s go back to old fashioned paper ballots. If we have to wait till the next day for results, tough. I don’t think there’s any question that the 2004 election was rigged. From voter intimidation in Ohio and Florida to the insecure PCs that tallied the votes in precincts there was way too much room for fraud. We can expect some variance between exit polls and the final result. However, to see the results consistently skewed and in non-normal patterns such as stated in the article leaves no logical alternative than to admit the election was fraudulent. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/12 "2005-04-07T13:19:39Z")
Shockingly - no one cares. No one apart from the cadre at [commondreams.org](http://commondreams.org) and their ilk, anyway. Seriously - if the case is so compelling now, what do you imagine would have to happen to get the general populace stirred up about it? The man that had the most to lose conceded the election without bringing up these points. What could be done to motivate people if Senator Kerry himself chose not to contest the results? Or, to turn away from the historical – assuming you’re right, and that the Election of 2004 was stolen, and that the method of stealing it was so effective that the mainstream press and general public regard the idea with either disbelief or languorous disinterest … what’s to stop it from being done again, and again? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/13 "2005-04-07T13:30:40Z")
I’m sure the 2008 election will be stolen too. The plotting has already begun. Some congressional races in 2006 are on the “to steal” list as well. After all, stealing is the only possible way that Republicans end up in office. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/14 "2005-04-07T13:35:30Z")
You are aware, aren’t you, that without the paper trail there was no way for Kerry to effectively challenge a damn thing, right? Convenient, huh? What’s to stop it from being done again? Well, for starters, we - all of us - could start to give a damn - we might not make statements like “Yes, by legally lobbying for the President” in response to anyone actually interesting in finding out what happened and stopping it from being done again. But, as usual for you, IOKIYAR, right? ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/15 "2005-04-07T13:37:12Z")
::sniff:: I’d just like to take a moment of silence in memorial of the good old days when the only way we could win an election was to buy one. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/16 "2005-04-07T13:40:30Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > … what’s to stop it from being done again, and again? Good question! 🙂 The “Count Every Vote Act,” sponsored in the Senate last month by Senators Barbara Boxer and Hillary Clinton, just **might** stop it from being done again! At any rate, the Act would mandate a paper trail. See this thread: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=307833&highlight=hillary](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=307833&highlight=hillary) ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/17 "2005-04-07T13:44:33Z")
That thread, to be fair, also identified major problems with that bill - it would open up the floodgates to outright voter fraud. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/18 "2005-04-07T13:50:20Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You are aware, aren’t you, that without the paper trail there was no way for Kerry to effectively challenge a damn thing, right? Convenient, huh? Horseshit, as usual. What stopped Kerry from challenging the election was: [list=A][li]The fact that there is no credible evidence of widespread fraud and [_]Kerry is apparently not a hysterically dishonest partisan moron [_]Hi Opal![/list][/li] > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > What’s to stop it from being done again? Hold on there, cowboy - you don’t get to say “again” until you have established that it was done once. Let’s see you come up with something more than the usual “grassy knoll” bullshit from the Sore-Loserman wing of the Democratic party. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/19 "2005-04-07T14:13:12Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > That thread, to be fair, also identified major problems with that bill - it would open up the floodgates to outright voter fraud. By “voter fraud,” I assume you mean noncitizens voting, as opposed to the vote-counting fraud at issue in this thread? Well, the Count Every Vote Act does allow for election-day registration, and it does provide for provisional ballots for voters whose voting qualifications are in doubt. That would not “open up the floodgates to outright voter fraud” – at most, it would raise the possibility that some votes might slip through the cracks and be counted without the voter’s credentials being properly verified. And since the bill also “enacts fair and uniform voter registration and identification,” there probably would be less voter fraud overall than there has been (and how much has there been, really?) under the present system. In any case, those provisions are severable from the paper-trail provision – either part could be enacted without the other. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/20 "2005-04-07T14:43:19Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Good question! 🙂 The “Count Every Vote Act,” sponsored in the Senate last month by Senators Barbara Boxer and Hillary Clinton, just **might** stop it from being done again! At any rate, the Act would mandate a paper trail. See this thread: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=307833&highlight=hillary](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=307833&highlight=hillary) It looks to me like the Republicans will be able to successfuly oppose that bill, and claim it’s because of the flaws identified in the linked thread. That is, the bill goes beyond fixing the problems you’ve identified. So - still in the mode of assuming fraud allegations are true - I would say that the Republicans have essentially completed the perfect _coup d’etat_. They can steal elections at will, and the majority of the country and the press are blissfully unconcerned. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039.md?page=2)