# I Remember some were saying Election 2004 was stolen... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 6, 2005, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039 "2005-04-06T14:47:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/181 "2005-04-15T13:39:10Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Yes, it was. **Evidence** was available. > > Got any of that? Here it is, months after the election and, as I mentioned, you got bupkiss. > > I notice you have produced nothing to back up your assertion that “everyone knew Ohio would be key”. Or, come to think of it, anything else you stated or implied. > That’s probably wise. They require rational debate, so you can run along now. > > Regards, > Big Boy Shodan I love this chain of reasoning: Repub: There’s no problem with electronic voting machines. Dem: But they leave no evidence if voter fraud occurs. In fact, there oughtta be an investigation to see if this kind of stuff happened in the 2004 election. Repub: You can’t start an investigation without evidence of some kind. And you have no evidence. The very definition of a tautology. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/182 "2005-04-15T14:09:08Z")
> [@annaplurabelle](#): > > It was and is common knowledge that Ohio was key. **Garfield226** has already demonstrated the absurdity of this. (thanks!). > [@annaplurabelle](#): > > If you google “Ohio _and_ Bush _and_ key” there are hundreds, if not thousands, of cites - usually the title of the news article alone makes that clear. Just as a point of information, “do my research for me” is NOT how the big boys do it. When you make a statement, you are expected to present some kind of evidence or reasoning to support it. > [@annaplurabelle](#): > > Is this topic that troubling to you, that you feel the need to distract from it with this nonsense? Again, a request for evidence is not a distraction, especially with posters of a certain nature. > [@Evil Captor](#): > > Repub: There’s no problem with electronic voting machines. > Dem: But they leave no evidence if voter fraud occurs. In fact, there oughtta be an investigation to see if this kind of stuff happened in the 2004 election. > Repub: You can’t start an investigation without evidence of some kind. And you have no evidence. > > The very definition of a tautology. Sorry, but that’s not the chain of “reasoning” as it seems to have developed. Dem: Kerry lost a close election! The election was fixed! Repub: What evidence do you have of that? Dem: The exit polls don’t match the actuall tallies! FIXFIXFIXFIX! Repub: But the patterns don’t show any problem with the election - just with the exit polls. What **evidence** do you have? Dem: Karl Rove is EVIL!!! Repub: Suppose he is. What **EVIDENCE** do you have that he fixed the election? Dem: There isn’t any evidence - and that PROVES he did it! Repub: 😕 You seem to be trying the _sine qua non_ of a good conspiracy theory - the lack of any evidence to support it shows merely the power of the Illuminati. There’s no evidence of a secret Jewish cabal to control the universe, either - do we need to investigate that too? Sorry, but until you come up with some evidence, suggestions of a full-bore investigation into something nobody but the really extremist partisans think happened looks very little like a concern with fairness and very much like a search for reasons not to give up the delusion that the whole country is really on your side. The election is long since over, and your side lost. Deal with it. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/183 "2005-04-15T15:32:38Z")
As I recall, everybody said the election would be decided by 3 states, OH, FL, and PA. Whoever got 2 of 3 would win, it’s just that simple. We knew FL was not going Kerry’s way, we knew PA was. It all came down to Ohio and we all knew it going in. [Here is a well written article that sums it up.](http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0414-28.htm) > [@](#): > > Let’s simply ask why the lines were so long and the voting machines so few in Columbus and Cleveland and inner-city and college precincts across the country, especially in the swing states, causing an estimated one-third of the voters in these precincts to drop out of line without casting a ballot; why so many otherwise Democratic ballots, thousands and thousands in Ohio alone, but by no means only in Ohio, recorded no vote for president (as though people with no opinion on the presidential race waited in line for three or six or eight hours out of a fervor to have their say in the race for county commissioner); and why virtually every voter complaint about electronic voting machine malfunction indicated an unauthorized vote switch from Kerry to Bush. A lot of little things were done to tip things Bush’s way. Voter registration rules were written to mandate a [particular weight of paper on the forms](http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/electionlaw/eligibility_rules08.html) , (an obvious violation of the Voting Rights Act) then later withdrawn but of course not all counties got the withdrawal notice. From the above cite: > [@](#): > > It is difficult to find any motivation for Mr. Blackwell’s edict that is not malicious. The paperweight requirement was allegedly designed to promote efficient record-keeping, but it is a now-antiquated requirement of administrative convenience rather than one of voter qualification. In Lake County, [voters received letters on bogus Board of Elections letterhead](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A12514-2004Oct30.html) informing voters that registered in NAACP and Democratic registration drives that they could not vote. [Then there were the thugs,](http://www.house.gov/judiciary_democrats/voteforumtrans121304.pdf) ,(start on p 37 for the story) staying in rooms paid for the the Ohio GOP, that phoned ex-cons and threatened them if they dared exercise their votes. > [@](#): > > There was a group in town. They called themselves the Texas Strike Force. They had a list. They were calling from a pay phone at the Holiday Inn. They were overheard saying - we have it on tape from a conservative Republican desk clerk who believes in democracy - - if you show up at the polls, you’ve just got out of prison a few months ago, I will turn you in to the FBI. And who paid for those rooms? … The Ohio Republican Party. Note: in the above for the sake of clarity I removed a misstatement that the witness corrected himself on. The Ohio election was a fraud. The above examples are but a tip of the iceberg. From the first cite: > [@](#): > > In contrast to the deathly silence of the media is the silent scream of the numbers. The more you ponder these numbers, and all the accompanying data, the louder that scream grows. Did the people’s choice get thwarted? Were thousands disenfranchised by chaos in the precincts, spurious challenges and uncounted provisional ballots? Were millions disenfranchised by electronic voting fraud on insecure, easily hacked computers? And who is authorized to act if this is so? Who is authorized to care? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/184 "2005-04-15T15:47:17Z")
OK. On behalf of the Evil Republican Conspiracy, I admit - for purposes of this thread only - that, in fact, your fears were correct. We stole the election. And we did it in such a way that leaves no evidence behind. Ha! Ha! What are you going to do about it? As you’ve already admitted, there is no evidence beyond your supposition, which no major media outlet seems to be taking seriously. Nor are the vast majority of the American populace taking it seriously. What can you possibly do against such power? I hope the rhetorical purpose of this post is clear. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/185 "2005-04-15T15:59:46Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > What are you going to do about it? Win the next election. Given four more years of Iraqalypse, a failed attempt to destroy Social Security, and the ethics problems of certain GOP leaders I think the Dems will win not only the White House and the Congress. Once we get the White House back, we get the FBI back and the honest investigations will begin. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/186 "2005-04-15T16:03:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I hope the rhetorical purpose of this post is clear. Maybe you’d better state it directly to make sure. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/187 "2005-04-15T16:53:39Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Win the next election. Given four more years of Iraqalypse, a failed attempt to destroy Social Security, and the ethics problems of certain GOP leaders I think the Dems will win not only the White House and the Congress. Once we get the White House back, we get the FBI back and the honest investigations will begin. But when the GOP can manipulate votes, how will you possibly win the White House? > [@ElivisL1ves](#): > > Maybe you’d better state it directly to make sure. Sure: Assuming, arguendo, that the election-theft allegations are true, and noting the relative malaise accompanying the issue in the public eye, what realistic strategy for chance exists? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/188 "2005-04-15T16:56:12Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sure: Assuming, arguendo, that the election-theft allegations are true, and noting the relative malaise accompanying the issue in the public eye, what realistic strategy for chance exists? chance = change ---
**Author:** ![Garfield226](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Garfield226](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garfield226)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/189 "2005-04-15T17:05:43Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > As I recall, everybody said the election would be decided by 3 states, OH, FL, and PA. Whoever got 2 of 3 would win, it’s just that simple. We knew FL was not going Kerry’s way, we knew PA was. It all came down to Ohio and we all knew it going in. You recall incorrectly. It’s helpful if you read the posts. **annaplurabelle** already attempted to make a very similar argument, and it holds no water. Firstly, _everybody_ didn’t come to any sort of consensus, other than that it would probably be close. Secondly, “everybody” identified SO MANY “key” states, that it’s easy to look at it after the fact and cherrypick the one(s) you _want_ to be important and say, “Well, everybody thought those would be important, so. . . [argument following from the invalid presupposition].” ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/190 "2005-04-15T17:06:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But when the GOP can manipulate votes, how will you possibly win the White House? The next election will not be close enough for all the dirty tricks in the world to carry the GOP. Plus I don’t see any charismatic successor to Bush. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/191 "2005-04-15T17:12:57Z")
**Bricker** , you asked the same thing way back when, and we’ve been discussing it since. One thing that needs to be done is to engage in discussion those who’d say things like > [@](#): > > But when the GOP can manipulate votes and > [@](#): > > Ha! Ha! What are you going to do about it? You have yet to acknowledge that there may well be a problem. That leaves us to wonder if you’re more results-oriented than you’re willing to say. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/192 "2005-04-15T17:23:08Z")
> [@Garfield226](#): > > You recall incorrectly. It’s helpful if you read the posts. > > **annaplurabelle** already attempted to make a very similar argument, and it holds no water. Firstly, _everybody_ didn’t come to any sort of consensus, other than that it would probably be close. Secondly, “everybody” identified SO MANY “key” states, that it’s easy to look at it after the fact and cherrypick the one(s) you _want_ to be important and say, “Well, everybody thought those would be important, so. . . [argument following from the invalid presupposition].” It isn’t how I recall. The pundits all agreed that the election would be decided in the “Big Three”. There aren’t that many competitive states and few of those are big prizes. Every newscast, every columnist that I read prior to the election focused on those three states. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/193 "2005-04-15T17:33:14Z")
> [@annaplurabelle](#): > > bordering on mental health scary Direct (or strongly implied) claims that a poster is stupid or insane are not appropriate to **Great Debates**. Please refrain from such statements in **GD**. [/Moderator Mode] ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/194 "2005-04-15T17:46:12Z")
Regarding the pundits boiling down the election to the “Big Three”, [this](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/10/26/politics/main651596.shtml) is quite typical of the analyses going on immediately before the election. And I think most of us knew Florida would break for Bush either honestly or not. We really werern’t all that sure about Pennsylvania but we all thought Ohio would look large, as it did. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/195 "2005-04-15T17:48:51Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > The next election will not be close enough for all the dirty tricks in the world to carry the GOP. Plus I don’t see any charismatic successor to Bush. Sure seems like McCain is running. Will he be too old? If not, I foresee a McCain/Rice ticket, and that will be very hard for the Hillary/Edwards ticket to beat. ---
**Author:** ![wonderwench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/35a633/32.png) [@wonderwench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonderwench)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/196 "2005-04-15T17:54:48Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > The OP links to nothing but a rehash of the ‘We need to trust the exit polls more than the votes’ argument. The argument was just as dumb when it was first shrieked out back in November. Yes. And the political agenda of University Professors and PhDs is pretty well known as leaning towards the Left. ---
**Author:** ![wonderwench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/35a633/32.png) [@wonderwench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonderwench)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/197 "2005-04-15T17:55:54Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > I realize that ‘Afghanistan’ and ‘America’ both start with the same letter, but you know that circumstances in the two countries are different, right? Exit polls are certainly fine to get the gist of an election that isn’t going to come down the wire, but crying because it was off in some battleground states is just silly. Not that I expect better, but you guys need a new schtick; for how many more elections is OMG STOLENZ3D!! going to be your rallying cry? If they are really worried about a stolen election, they should look more closely at the missing ballots for the governor’s election in Washington state. ---
**Author:** ![wonderwench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/35a633/32.png) [@wonderwench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonderwench)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/198 "2005-04-15T17:59:12Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Good question! 🙂 The “Count Every Vote Act,” sponsored in the Senate last month by Senators Barbara Boxer and Hillary Clinton, just **might** stop it from being done again! At any rate, the Act would mandate a paper trail. See this thread: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=307833&highlight=hillary](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=307833&highlight=hillary) Right issue. Wrong solution. This act would also allow anyone to go to any polling place without being registered and then to vote. Talk about a verification nightmare. My husband mentioned an interesting and better solution after the last election. It involves voters receiving a unique receipt and then being able to log into a website to see how their votes were actually tabulated. This type of self-audit makes more sense than just opening up the polls to non-citizens, felons and non-registered residents. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/199 "2005-04-15T18:38:01Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Sure seems like McCain is running. Will he be too old? If not, I foresee a McCain/Rice ticket, and that will be very hard for the Hillary/Edwards ticket to beat. I think McCain’s time is past. He might have been a strong choice in 2000, but he turns 72 on 8/29/08. Four more years of Father Time beating on him is going to make him seem too old for the job, especially if Edwards is his opponent. I don’t get the Republican adoration of Condi. Put her on the ticket against a southern Democrat, and a lot of southern red states are going to look a lot bluer. Her close ties to Bush and total inability to utter a discouraging word about his policies are going to cost her. We’ve of course got a long way to go and speculating about nominees now is a bit like predicting the papal election. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2005, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/200 "2005-04-15T18:45:53Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You have yet to acknowledge that there may well be a problem. Like the Washington State GOP, he’ll suddenly acknowledge there’s a problem when his candidate loses a race. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039.md?page=11)