# I Remember some were saying Election 2004 was stolen... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 6, 2005, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039 "2005-04-06T14:47:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/241 "2005-04-19T20:40:12Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > And, for all we know, he was right. Quite true. For all we know the government really does have space aliens and flying saucers at area 51 too. And there was a huge conspiricy to assasinate Kennedy. And Bigfoot is real, and roams the North West portions of the country. And… All I’ll say is if Kerry really DID win in a landslide and the Republicans managed to turn that around so that GW won by over 3 million votes, and do so in a way that only the really fringe nutballs see this vast conspiricy (even the main stream press is staying away from this one), then there really is no point in the Democrats running again…ever. Because if they could do this for Bush, what could they do with a candidate thats actually likable??? The mind boggles. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/242 "2005-04-19T20:45:38Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > And my mother predicts a hard winter every year and sometimes she’s right. I can’t be wrong forever! Like Linus and the Great Pumpkin, my faith is unshakable. 🙂 That’s fair enough. And I shouldn’t keep ragging on you about the election predictions. Just be aware that at least 51% of the country doesn’t see it thru the same lens. What you need (if you are going to get anywhere with this election fraud thing) is evidence that doesn’t require any faith. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/243 "2005-04-19T21:02:13Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > 🙂 > > That’s fair enough. And I shouldn’t keep ragging on you about the election predictions. > > Just be aware that at least 51% of the country doesn’t see it thru the same lens. What you need (if you are going to get anywhere with this election fraud thing) is evidence that doesn’t require any faith. > > Regards, > Shodan Fair enough. If we dig deep enough and long enough, we’ll get that incontrovertible proof. It’s sort of like when they found Pluto. They knew that something was disrupting Neptune’s orbit, they proved it had to be a planet, only when the telescope found it did they have absolute proof. We know the election was a fraud, we know about how it was done, we just need someone to break the silence. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2005, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/244 "2005-04-19T21:08:21Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Fair enough. If we dig deep enough and long enough, we’ll get that incontrovertible proof. It’s sort of like when they found Pluto. They knew that something was disrupting Neptune’s orbit, they proved it had to be a planet, only when the telescope found it did they have absolute proof. We know the election was a fraud, we know about how it was done, we just need someone to break the silence. Thats an interesting point. Of course, wasn’t there another astronomer (or group of astronomers) who thought there was a massive planet beyond Pluto but eventually found out that there was simply slop in the figures and they were wrong the whole time…that once the figures were tightented up the known planets and other matter in the solar system accounted for it just fine?? 😉 -XT ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/245 "2005-04-20T17:48:52Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > The next election will not be close enough for all the dirty tricks in the world to carry the GOP. Given the makeup of the electoral college and the current demographics and voting trends, the above statement must be filed under “wishful thinking”. I think it’s possible for the right Democrat to be elected President, but it will be an uphill battle. I see nothing on the horizon that would indicate the Republican majorities in the House or Senate are in any danger anytime soon. ---
**Author:** ![Garfield226](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Garfield226](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garfield226)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/246 "2005-04-20T19:56:40Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > Given the makeup of the electoral college and the current demographics and voting trends, the above statement must be filed under “wishful thinking”. What do you mean, “The makeup of the electoral college”? As far I as understand, the electoral college is only selected after an election, and the party who wins each state selects its own electors. There IS no electoral college right now. ---
**Author:** ![Hazel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@Hazel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hazel)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2005, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/247 "2005-04-22T00:54:52Z")
> [@wonderwench](#): > > My husband mentioned an interesting and better solution after the last election. It involves voters receiving a unique receipt and then being able to log into a website to see how their votes were actually tabulated. This type of self-audit makes more sense than just opening up the polls to non-citizens, felons and non-registered residents. Why do you think non-citizens would be able to vote? What is your objection to people who’ve been convicted of felonies having their right to vote restored once they’ve paid their debt to society? I don’t think I understand the comment about non-registered residents. If we allow election-day registration, the people who show up on election day, register, and vote, will no longer be non-registered. Are you just saying that you don’t think anyone should be able to vote unless they decide long enough in advance of the election that they want to have a say? ---
**Author:** ![Hazel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@Hazel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hazel)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2005, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/248 "2005-04-23T04:09:50Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > What are you basing this on? Because, if it’s the poll data, it contradicts the available information. I’m basing it on numerous things. Expert opinion that the official results are statistically implausible. The exit polls. Bush’s low approval ratings just before the election. The vulnerabilty of the e-voting machines, and of the opical scanners. The Warren County “lockdown” and the FBI’s denial of having issued any Warren County alert. Account after account of vote suppression, irregularities, etc. (If I’m not answering your question, please clarify the question.) ---
**Author:** ![Hazel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@Hazel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hazel)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2005, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/249 "2005-04-23T04:26:53Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Karl Rove has a long history of using political dirty tricks against opponents by using third parties he can’t be connected to. The man in pure scum. If he knew of a way to fix the vote, I am sure he’d use it, because on the evidence he doesn’t respect the democratic process at all. If there were votes fixed in battleground states in favor of Republicans, I’d be looking rather hard at Rove as the mastermind behind it all. I wouldn’t put it past him. But it seems to me that he didn’t _need_ to mastermind anything. For several years, there was ample news coverage of the “black box voting” controversy. Republican officials in the 16 or 17 swing states could hardly help but know that these e-voting machines were vulnerable. And it would not have been hard to learn that the optical scanners were manufactored by the same few companies that manufactor the e-voting machines. I don’t think anyone needed to say a word to Republican officials in the swing states. They knew what was expected of them: win. Win by any means necessary. Perhaps Rove (or someone) masterminded the existance of / wide use of e-voting machines and optical scanners from a small number of Republican-favoring companies. Who knows, maybe he masterminded the formation of these few companies. He (or someone) may have worked to put these things in place. But it does not seem to me that, on election day, any big, organized conspiracy was needed. ---
**Author:** ![Hazel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@Hazel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hazel)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2005, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/250 "2005-04-23T04:31:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > OK. > > On behalf of the Evil Republican Conspiracy, I admit - for purposes of this thread only - that, in fact, your fears were correct. We stole the election. And we did it in such a way that leaves no evidence behind. Actually, I think there’s plenty of evidence. It’s just being ignored. ---
**Author:** ![Hazel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@Hazel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hazel)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2005, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/251 "2005-04-23T04:36:12Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Win the next election. Given four more years of Iraqalypse, a failed attempt to destroy Social Security, and the ethics problems of certain GOP leaders I think the Dems will win not only the White House and the Congress. Once we get the White House back, we get the FBI back and the honest investigations will begin. Honest investigations. I hope so. But will there be honest investigations, even when we have a Dem President & Congress? The same Dems who rolled over and played dead when faced with a stolen election? The same Dems who keep voting with the Repubs on things like the Debt Slavery bill? (By the way, I love the term “Iraqalypse”!) ---
**Author:** ![Hazel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@Hazel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hazel)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2005, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/252 "2005-04-23T04:41:02Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > It isn’t how I recall. The pundits all agreed that the election would be decided in the “Big Three”. There aren’t that many competitive states and few of those are big prizes. Every newscast, every columnist that I read prior to the election focused on those three states. Right. There were only 16 or 17 states that were actually in play – the oft-mentioned swing states. And only some of the swing states were major. ---
**Author:** ![Hazel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@Hazel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hazel)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2005, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/253 "2005-04-23T04:51:06Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Very good! **Much** better. > > Now we can tear your cites into itty-bitty pieces. > > [Here](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4141233) we have a cite that Florida was key. > > [Here](http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x13769.xml)we have a mention that three states are “key”, none of which is Ohio. > > [Here](http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/10/31/poll.sunday/) we have a mention that six states are key. > > [Here](http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/10/07/state.polls/) they cite Colorado as a key state. (Also New Mexico and Wisconsin). > > And [here](http://actforvictory.org/act.php/truth/articles/new_act_polls_show_kerry_beating_bush_in_battleground_states/) we have a mention of “battleground states” that doesn’t even mention Ohio. > > So I am afraid your notion of “everyone” knowing beyond question that Ohio was going to be the state where the fix had to be in is a little short of the mark. > > Regards, > Shodan Oh c’mon! I think she made the case that Ohio was frequently cited as the “key-est” among the swing states. Of course you can find people who listed other states as key, but the point is that Ohio was seen by many as being esp. crucial. ---
**Author:** ![Hazel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@Hazel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hazel)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2005, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/254 "2005-04-23T04:56:06Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > You’ve shown that some people thought Ohio MIGHT be important, even the key. Shodan has shown that other people had other thoughts on it…some of which didn’t include Ohio at all. It would still take foreknowledge to know that Ohio was going to be THE decisive swing state and put their eggs in that basket to ‘steal’ the election. Reguardless, I’ve still seen no actual proof that even Ohio was ‘stolen’…just a lot of dancing around about whether or not everyone ‘knew’ that Ohio was going to be THE one and only key to victory. > > -XT But Ohio was _not_ the only stolen state; it’s just the one we’ve paid the most attention to. (Just like 2000 – FL wasn’t the only state where hanky-panky occured, but little attenion was paid to the others.) ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2005, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/255 "2005-04-23T05:05:17Z")
> [@Hazel](#): > > Actually, I think there’s plenty of evidence. It’s just being ignored. So also say the UFO conspiracy nuts. ---
**Author:** ![Hazel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@Hazel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hazel)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2005, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/256 "2005-04-23T05:08:15Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Why is there no official investigation happening then BobLibDem? Why aren’t the Democrats in the Congress and Senate agitating for one? I’m curious why you think the Dems aren’t doing anything if there are so many indications. > > -XT A few Dems did make some fuss. But IMO, most of the Dems are obeying their corporate masters. Keeping the big donors happy is all that most in either party care about. If the big donors tell the Dems to roll over and play dead, most of them will roll over and play dead. ---
**Author:** ![Hazel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@Hazel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hazel)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2005, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/257 "2005-04-23T05:14:17Z")
> [@manhattan](#): > > I was answering your first scenario, as you know. > > As for undercounting, I don’t know about that. It seems odd, like the old mechanical voting machines weren’t doing their thing. Perhaps they should consider upgrading to a nice optical-scan or touch-screen system, which have higher reliability. 😉 > > That it happened much more often in Democratic districts than in Republican ones tells me that it’s probably a competence or money problem rather than one of shenanigans – why would Democratic elected and appointed officials in those districts take part in some sort of scheme which benefits a Republican candidate? Hightly partisan Secretaries of State being in charge, maybe? Katherine Harris in FL in 2000 and Ken Blackwell in OH in 2004, in particular. ---
**Author:** ![Hazel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@Hazel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hazel)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2005, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/258 "2005-04-23T05:36:44Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > 🙂 > > …at least 51% of the country doesn’t see it thru the same lens. > Regards, > Shodan I don’t get this! When a candidate gets (or supposedly gets, in some cases) 51%of the vote (or whatever percent), why do people talk about “51% of the country” – it wasn’t 51% of the country, it was 51% of the voters – 40 or 50 per cent of the country didn’t vote. To take a mathmatically simple example, in 2000, we had a near tie between Bush and Gore. But only 1/2 of those who could have votes actually did so. It was not 50-50 between Bush & Gore. It was 25% Bush, 25% Gore, 50% “none of the above”. In 2004, the percent who voted went up, but there were still about 40% who chose not to vote. The alleged 51-49 split was really about a 29 1/2 - 30 1/2 - 40 split. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2005, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/259 "2005-04-23T05:55:03Z")
> [@Hazel](#): > > Actually, I think there’s plenty of evidence. It’s just being ignored. Hey, there are only so many hours in a day, and that Michael Jackson trial takes up so much of it… ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2005, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/260 "2005-04-23T15:29:28Z")
> [@Hazel](#): > > But Ohio was _not_ the only stolen state; it’s just the one we’ve paid the most attention to. (Just like 2000 – FL wasn’t the only state where hanky-panky occured, but little attenion was paid to the others.) Indeed. I recall accounts of precincts in New Mexico where a lot of the people have to drive a long way to the polling places having significant undercounts. We’re supposed to believe that people drive dozens if not scores of miles to vote but express no opinion on the presidency. Until real election reform is instituted, we can never trust any election. It would be simple- if voting electonically, the machine would print a record of what you voted for. You then deposit that record into a box for auditing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039.md?page=14)