# I Remember some were saying Election 2004 was stolen... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 6, 2005, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039 "2005-04-06T14:47:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/41 "2005-04-07T19:49:01Z")
> [@Scott\_plaid](#): > > if it does count every vote, what’s the problem? The problem is not counting every vote, it’s counting every VOTER. A registration deadline is designed to prevent a flood of partisans from coming into a jurisdiction and claiming residency just in time for the election. It also gives authorities time to verify elegibility. Addresses are verified and people are asked to vote in the precinct in which they live so someone can’t claim multiple addresses and vote multiple times. Identification is verified for the same reason. Making yourself aware of the deadline and process for registering to vote is not a difficult process. ``` And asking someone to produce identification and requiring them to vote at the polling place designated for their home address does not constitute intimidation, no matter how politically expedient it might be to claim otherwise. ``` ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/42 "2005-04-07T20:04:26Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You’re all demanding that the evidence be found, with the case proven to your satisfaction, \*before \* doing an investigation. Um, no, it doesn’t quite work that way, amigos. No. I’m demanding that there be more than a mere scintilla of evidence before starting an investigation. In other words, no - no investigation predicated on, “Well, it mighta happened!” Obviously I’m not requiring proof beyond a reasonable doubt before undertaking an investigation… but if you were a cop, you couldn’t just go to your captain and explain you were investigating Joe Blow for murder because he’s got shifty eyes. You’d need to show your captain SOMETHING to make the caes that your time and energy were best spent investigating Joe Blow. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/43 "2005-04-07T20:21:05Z")
I demanded there be more than a mere scintilla of evidence before starting an invasion. In other words, no investigation predicated on, “Well, it mighta happened!” Obviously I’m requiring proof beyond a reasonable doubt before undertaking an invasion… if you were a cop, you couldn’t just go to your captain and explain you were invading Iraq because Saddam’s got shifty eyes. You’d need to show your captain SOMETHING to make the case that your troops lives and taxpayer’s dollars were best spent invading Iraq. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/44 "2005-04-07T20:34:26Z")
> [@Mtgman](#): > > I demanded there be more than a mere scintilla of evidence before starting an invasion. In other words, no investigation predicated on, “Well, it mighta happened!” Obviously I’m requiring proof beyond a reasonable doubt before undertaking an invasion… if you were a cop, you couldn’t just go to your captain and explain you were invading Iraq because Saddam’s got shifty eyes. You’d need to show your captain SOMETHING to make the case that your troops lives and taxpayer’s dollars were best spent invading Iraq. And there was evidence before the invasion happened. It turned out not to be as solid as first thought, of course. But it wasn’t merely that Saddam had shifty eyes. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/45 "2005-04-07T20:49:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And there was evidence before the invasion happened. It turned out not to be as solid as first thought, of course. But it wasn’t merely that Saddam had shifty eyes. Oh please, stop obfuscating. Not as “solid as first thought” my ass. Try calling what your own Commission on the Intelligence Capabilities of the United States Regarding Weapons of Mass Destruction, calls it: [the Bush administration, which has displayed consistency to the point of irresponsibility in emphasizing alleged WMD’s as its major justification for attacking Iraq, was “dead wrong.”](http://www.counterpunch.org/vidal04062005.html) (my highlight for your benefit) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/46 "2005-04-07T21:01:03Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Oh please, stop obfuscating. Not as “solid as first thought” my ass. Try calling what your own Commission on the Intelligence Capabilities of the United States Regarding Weapons of Mass Destruction, calls it: > > [the Bush administration, which has displayed consistency to the point of irresponsibility in emphasizing alleged WMD’s as its major justification for attacking Iraq, was “dead wrong.”](http://www.counterpunch.org/vidal04062005.html) > > (my highlight for your benefit) Perhaps the problems you seem to be having with your ass’s solidity have you confused. The Commission on the Intelligence Capabilities of the United States Regarding Weapons of Mass Destruction never said anything using the words “dead wrong”. Did they? No, that comes from an article to which you’ve linked _describing_ the report, in less than flattering terms. Doesn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/47 "2005-04-07T21:03:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And there was evidence before the invasion happened. It turned out not to be as solid as first thought, of course. But it wasn’t merely that Saddam had shifty eyes. A fair bit of the NIE[National Intelligence Estimate]s from the timeframe have been released. Could you perhaps point to this evidence? I remember reading it at the time and seeing it containing a lot of suspicion and virtually no confirmation. Specific attempts were made to send UN Inspectors to get such confirmation and they turned up blank. So what made the pre-war intelligence speculating bad stuff happening in Iraq different from current speculations that bad stuff happened in Ohio? Or is it your contention that the NIE, un-confirmed by on-the-ground Inspectors, was sufficient? Does the fact that portions of it were actively disproven by said Inspectors change anything? By the way, if we are going to actually examine the first-hand evidence from Inspector’s reports and NIE’s we should move that discussion to another thread, just out of politeness. At the moment it is still vaguely on-topic because it ties in with the level of proof required to take action on various issues. If the possible election fraud(a serious charge) does not warrant investigation based on the suspicions of professional statistics analysts, then how can the possible buildup of WMD(also a serious charge) warrant an invasion based on suspicions of the CIA? Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/48 "2005-04-07T21:08:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Perhaps the problems you seem to be having with your ass’s solidity have you confused. The Commission on the Intelligence Capabilities of the United States Regarding Weapons of Mass Destruction never said anything using the words “dead wrong”. Did they? The term was in the transmittal letter. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/49 "2005-04-07T21:09:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Perhaps the problems you seem to be having with your ass’s solidity have you confused. The Commission on the Intelligence Capabilities of the United States Regarding Weapons of Mass Destruction never said anything using the words “dead wrong”. Did they? No, that comes from an article to which you’ve linked _describing_ the report, in less than flattering terms. > > Doesn’t it? Whoops, sorry there counselor. From the cover letter to the [report](http://www.wmd.gov/report/wmd_report.pdf) (Page 2 of the linked PDF): > [@](#): > > We conclude that the Intelligence Community was \*\*dead wrong \*\* in almost all of its pre-war judgments about Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction. This was a major intelligence failure. Its principal causes were the Intelligence Community’s inability to collect good information about Iraq’s WMD programs, serious errors in analyzing what information it could gather, and a failure to make clear just how much of its analysis was based on assumptions, rather than good evidence. On a matter of this importance, we simply cannot afford failures of this magnitude. > After a thorough review, the Commission found no indication that the Intelligence Community distorted the evidence regarding Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction. What the intelligence professionals told you about Saddam Hussein’s programs was what they believed. They were simply wrong. Emphasis added. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/50 "2005-04-07T21:12:52Z")
> [@Scott\_plaid](#): > > ::tears his own hair out:: If they had any evidence, they would be in court right now, and I wish they were! What are you saying here. Are you saying that those who allege cheating must be wrong, because they have not taken their case to court? But they have taken their case to court! In California, several lawsuits challenged the state’ right to use machines made by Diebold. They succeeded, and Diebold was kicked out after it was proven that the company had been massively dishonest in selling those machines to the state. ([cite](http://wired.com/news/evote/0,2645,63191,00.html?tw=wn_story_related)) More lawsuits are in progress. In Lucas County, Ohio, they’ve forced the suspension of four employees from the Board of Elections over errors in the 2004 election. It’s not yet clear exactly what the errors were. ([cite](http://www.wtol.com/global/story.asp?s=2646613&ClientType=Printable)) In Volusia County, Florida, a lawsuit is currently in progress. ([cite](http://creditsuit.org/credit.php/blog/voting_fraud_florida_suit_to_set_aside_the_11_2_04_volusia_county_election/)). The defendants have thus far stonewalled and refused to provide requested information, or provided incomplete information. ([cite](http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=4508)) The plaintiffs appear to have evidence of Diebold deliberately leaving security holes in their systems, such that the machines could be tampered with. Diebold has refused to provide evidence that would confirm or deny the charges. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/51 "2005-04-07T21:13:57Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > After all, stealing is the only possible way that Republicans end up in office. After all, we all _know_ that Reagan couldn’t have won 49 states back in 1984, that had to be fixed… Bush winning in 1988 against Dukakis? Nah, had to be stolen. In the Senate, you’re certain that the following races were stolen, right? Alabama - Richard Shelby won with 67% (more than a two to one margin. But surely that was fraudulant because _stealing is the **only** possible way that Republicans end up in office_. Arizona - John McCain won with over 76%. But obviously the 900,000 vote difference was a fraud because _stealing is the **only** possible way that Republicans end up in office_. Iowa - Chuck Grassley won with 70%+. But we all know that Iowan Republicans slipped the extra 600,000 votes in there illegaly because _stealing is the **only** possible way that Republicans end up in office_. Ohio - George Vonovich won with 63%. But certainly we all know what happened in Ohio! Vonovich really lost but he’s in because _stealing is the **only** possible way that Republicans end up in office_. 17 Republicans won in the House because they ran unopposed - but I’m sure that they must have cheated in receiving any votes because, as we all know, _stealing is the **only** possible way that Republicans end up in office_. :rolleyes: Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/52 "2005-04-07T21:21:20Z")
Psst, **Zev** : **Evil One** is not **Evil Captor**. He was being sarcastic, not idiotic. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/53 "2005-04-07T21:30:35Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Perhaps the problems you seem to be having with your ass’s solidity have you confused. The Commission on the Intelligence Capabilities of the United States Regarding Weapons of Mass Destruction never said anything using the words “dead wrong”. Did they? No, that comes from an article to which you’ve linked _describing_ the report, in less than flattering terms. > > Doesn’t it? It appears you owe both, myself and my ass, an apology. Had you been a little more attentive while reading my cite, you might have notice the words “dead wrong” encapsulated in quotation marks – surely you must know what theose mean? However, as per ususal, in your zeal to dismiss anything critical of your idols, you simply chose to dismiss my source. So, once again with feeling, not as “solid as first thought” my obviously smart ass. Try **"dead wrong."** BTW, thank you for the direct quotation, **Zakalwe** ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/54 "2005-04-07T21:45:46Z")
> [@manhattan](#): > > Psst, **Zev** : > > **Evil One** is not **Evil Captor**. He was being sarcastic, not idiotic. What was that big gust of wind? :smack: :smack: :smack: Sorry about that. Carry on… Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/55 "2005-04-07T21:55:09Z")
Here’s an interesting post: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=5517299#post5517299](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=5517299#post5517299) Then there’s this resource [compilation of problems reported in the media about the 2004 general election](http://www.votersunite.org/electionproblems.asp?sort=state&selectstate=ALL&selectproblemtype=ALL) ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/56 "2005-04-07T21:58:56Z")
[A Research Report from the University of Pennsylvania Graduate Division, School of Arts & Sciences Center for Organizational Dynamics The Unexplained Exit Poll Discrepancy](http://www.appliedresearch.us/sf/Documents/ExitPoll.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/57 "2005-04-07T22:33:37Z")
> [@zev\_steinhardt](#): > > What was that big gust of wind? :smack: :smack: :smack: > > Sorry about that. Carry on… > > Zev Steinhardt That’s quite alright, Zev. Sarcasm is hard to convey with the written word. I’m just flattered Manhattan is familiar with my posting history. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/58 "2005-04-07T22:50:43Z")
Hiya! I worked on the Kerry campaign. The reason we conceded is because the other guy got more people to come out and vote. At least according to our own counts of things. Do I think there were voting irregularities that could have been big enough to turn the tables? Maybe. But even if so the problem is, contesting them generally cannot really overturn the outcome of the election: it only impacts the legal culpability of those who caused them. Sometimes, as when the Republicans hired companies to jam the lines of Democratic GOTV operations by robo-calling into our phone bank numbers, its worth going after them. But it doesn’t change the vote count, it just gets certain people thrown in jail (and usually not for very long: they come out, get hired by the Republicans again, and try to dream up new schemes: taking one for the team is a great way to earn yourself a promotion, though not as good as not getting caught at all). ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/59 "2005-04-07T23:08:49Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > Whoops, sorry there counselor. From the cover letter to the [report](http://www.wmd.gov/report/wmd_report.pdf) (Page 2 of the linked PDF): > > Emphasis added. Whoops indeed. My bad. Apologies to **RedFury** , and his unfairly-maligned backside as well. I must join the ranks of the intel community as being dead wrong, it seems. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2005, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039/60 "2005-04-07T23:38:25Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I must join the ranks of the intel community as being dead wrong, it seems. Now, imagine it’s March 2003. Some third party had been relying on your absolute trustworthiness. [You’ve just been shown to be “dead wrong” in at least one area\*](http://www.caabu.org/press/documents/12th-unmovic-report.html). What should this third party do? A) Declare certain and absolute confidence in everything you’ve said, including the proven incorrect statement, and start a shooting war in which even his best friends won’t back him up? B) Hold back and re-consider that since you have been proven wrong at least once that maybe, just maybe, you’re wrong about other things as well and since the power of resurrection is unavailable, war can be put off a bit? Because that’s the position George Bush found himself in during March of 2003 when Hans Blix and the UNMOVIC team reported their findings. The role of the CIA was played by **Bricker** , and the role of the UNMOVIC was played by **Zakalwe** , et. al. The asterisk above refers to some of their reports. > [@](#): > > 1. Since the arrival of the first inspectors in Iraq on 27 November 2002, UNMOVIC has conducted more than 550 inspections covering approximately 350 sites. Of these 44 sites were new sites. All inspections were performed without notice, and access was in virtually all cases provided promptly. In no case have the inspectors seen convincing evidence that the Iraqi side knew in advance of their impending arrival. > > 2. The inspections have taken place throughout Iraq at industrial sites, ammunition depots, research centres, universities, presidential sites, mobile laboratories, private houses, missile production facilities, military camps and agricultural sites. At all sites, which had been inspected before 1998, re-baselining activities were performed. This included the identification of the function and contents of each building, new or old, at a site. It also included verification of previously tagged equipment, application of seals and tags, evaluation of locations for the future installation of cameras and other monitors, as well as taking samples and discussions with the site personnel regarding past and present activities. At certain sites, ground-penetrating radar was used to look for underground structures or buried equipment. Similar activities were performed at new sites. Inspections are effectively helping to bridge the gap in knowledge that arose due to the absence of inspections between December 1998 and November 2002. > > 3. More than 200 chemical and more than 100 biological samples have been collected at different sites. Three quarters of these have been screened using UNMOVIC’s own analytical laboratory capabilities at the Baghdad Ongoing Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Centre (BOMVIC). The results to date have been consistent with Iraq’s declarations. > > 4. UNMOVIC has identified and started the destruction of approximately 50 litres of mustard declared by Iraq that had been placed under UNSCOM supervision and seal at the Muthanna site in 1998. This process will continue. A laboratory quantity (1 litre) of thiodiglycol, a mustard precursor, which had been found at another site, has also been destroyed. Also in evidence was the [report of Dr. Blix to the UN Security Council](http://www.caabu.org/press/documents/blix-report-7march.html). > [@](#): > > As I noted on 14 February, intelligence authorities have claimed that weapons of mass destruction are moved around Iraq by trucks and, in particular, that there are mobile production units for biological weapons. The Iraqi side states that such activities do not exist. Several inspections have taken place at declared and undeclared sites in relation to mobile production facilities. Food testing mobile laboratories and mobile workshops have been seen, as well as large containers with seed processing equipment. No evidence of proscribed activities have so far been found. Iraq is expected to assist in the development of credible ways to conduct random checks of ground transportation. > … > There have been reports, denied from the Iraqi side, that proscribed activities are conducted underground. Iraq should provide information on any underground structure suitable for the production or storage of WMD. During inspections of declared or undeclared facilities, inspection teams have examined building structures for any possible underground facilities. In addition, ground penetrating radar equipment was used in several specific locations. No underground facilities for chemical or biological production or storage were found so far. Enjoy, Steven [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-some-were-saying-election-2004-was-stolen/298039.md?page=4)