# I Remember When America was Good **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 6, 2010, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550 "2010-05-06T20:35:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/1 "2010-05-06T20:35:59Z")
Remember when America was the good guys? Some day you can describe it to your kids. It’ll seem as foreign as rotary dial telephones and real breasts. [Story](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36996604/ns/world_news-americas/) > [@](#): > > GUANTANAMO BAY U.S. NAVAL BASE - U.S. interrogators tried to scare a young Canadian prisoner by making up a story about a skinny Muslim gang-raped by black men at an American prison, an interrogator testified in the Guantanamo war crimes court Thursday…Khadr was captured in a firefight at an alleged al-Qaida compound at age 15… > The interrogator, who was later court-martialed for abusing other prisoners, said he told Khadr he might have to go to prison if he kept lying. > > He said he never directly threatened Khadr. But he said he tried to exploit Khadr’s fear by telling him a fictitious tale about a skinny little Afghan Muslim who was sent to an American prison and encountered “black guys and Nazis” who were “still mad about the Sept. 11 attacks.” > > “Apparently one time he was in the shower by himself and these four big black guys showed up in prison and say ‘We know all about you Muslims’ … And it’s terrible if something would happen but they caught him in his shower and they raped him. This kid got hurt. We think he ended up dying,” No. 1 recalled telling Khadr. > … > He has claimed he was threatened with rape, beaten, thrown to the ground, chained in painful positions, forced to urinate on himself, terrorized by dogs and subjected to freezing temperatures and sleep deprivation at Bagram and Guantanamo… > No. 1 acknowledged serving five months in prison after he pleaded guilty in 2005 to abusing two other prisoners at Bagram. He said he forced one to roll around on the floor and kiss his boots. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/2 "2010-05-06T20:41:56Z")
As if much much worse didn’t happen before. Information is freer today, that’s all. I’m not saying it’s okay, just that there was not a golden age where there was no torture and no child abductions and murder, it just seems to be more common because the world is smaller. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/3 "2010-05-06T20:52:30Z")
I hear this a lot around here. I call Bullshit. As bad as Gitmo may be, we’ve committed atrocities in all the wars we’ve been involved in. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/4 "2010-05-06T21:00:04Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I hear this a lot around here. I call Bullshit. > > As bad as Gitmo may be, we’ve committed atrocities in all the wars we’ve been involved in. I can see an atrocity here or there in the fog of war, shit happens. In retrospect bombing Dresden was not a good idea. But the cold, pre-meditated use of torture is beyond the pale. Not only that, we have politicians and media people defending it. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/5 "2010-05-06T21:10:50Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > I can see an atrocity here or there in the fog of war, shit happens. In retrospect bombing Dresden was not a good idea. But the cold, pre-meditated use of torture is beyond the pale. Not only that, we have politicians and media people defending it. I’m not an American, but it seems odd to me to state that, bad as it is, one nasty guard scaring this guy with fake rape stories is morally _worse_ for the country than having an offical wartime policy of fire-bombing cities and burning thousands of innocent civilians alive. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/6 "2010-05-06T21:13:07Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > I can see an atrocity here or there in the fog of war, shit happens. In retrospect bombing Dresden was not a good idea. But the cold, pre-meditated use of torture is beyond the pale. Not only that, we have politicians and media people defending it. It’s OK to coldly premeditate the killing of 10s of thousands of civilians, but not OK to torture a few? I’d rather be told a scary story about prison rape than have my whole family killed. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/7 "2010-05-06T21:17:11Z")
OK, let’s take this question seriously. When was America “Good”? When was this happy time when we were better than we are now? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/8 "2010-05-06T21:19:23Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I’m not an American, but it seems odd to me to state that, bad as it is, one nasty guard scaring this guy with fake rape stories is morally _worse_ for the country than having an offical wartime policy of fire-bombing cities and burning thousands of innocent civilians alive. Why is the effect it has on the torturing country important? Seems to me the effect it has on the people being tortured is more important. ---
**Author:** ![Covered\_In\_Bees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7ab992/32.png) [@Covered\_In\_Bees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Covered_In_Bees)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/9 "2010-05-06T21:20:29Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > OK, let’s take this question seriously. When was America “Good”? When was this happy time when we were better than we are now? Don’t we already have a **Starving Artist** thread going? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/10 "2010-05-06T21:22:44Z")
The US was at least in site of the moral high ground before it invaded Iraq. Torturing allies puts the US on a different planet than the moral high ground. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/11 "2010-05-06T21:27:44Z")
> [@MNSBC](#): > > The interrogator, who was later court-martialed for abusing other prisoners… So an American behaved badly, and he was punished by an American government agency for his actions. I’m not seeing how that makes America the Bad Guy. Yes, if the American government condones or celebrates this kind of behavior, we lose the moral high ground. But that’s not what I’m seeing here. This was testimony at a hearing to determine whether information obtained during this prisoner’s interrogation should be thrown out. The fact that we are holding such hearings (for a man who was charged with murdering a U.S. soldier), means that the rule of law is still in effect. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/12 "2010-05-06T21:35:21Z")
Black guys and Nazis! Working togther! Mass Hysteria! ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/13 "2010-05-06T21:44:19Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I’m not an American, but it seems odd to me to state that, bad as it is, one nasty guard scaring this guy with fake rape stories is morally _worse_ for the country than having an offical wartime policy of fire-bombing cities and burning thousands of innocent civilians alive. The US did not have a policy of fire-bombing cities to kill civilians (as far as I know), but there is always judgement in any military decision. The US, under Bush, did have a policy of torture, and that was a change to tradition. If it were just one guy it’d be different, this is just an example of a policy issued from the White House. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/14 "2010-05-06T21:49:32Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I’m not an American, but it seems odd to me to state that, bad as it is, one nasty guard scaring this guy with fake rape stories is morally _worse_ for the country than having an offical wartime policy of fire-bombing cities and burning thousands of innocent civilians alive. It is morally worse for the country because everybody knows about it and many defend it **in public.** George Orwell wrote a few lines about how the value of hypocrisy in maintaining really moral behavior has been underestimated. “A mask can alter the contours of a face.” ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/15 "2010-05-06T22:03:38Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > I can see an atrocity here or there in the fog of war, shit happens. In retrospect bombing Dresden was not a good idea. But the cold, pre-meditated use of torture is beyond the pale. Not only that, we have politicians and media people defending it. Sigh, the only thing that has changed is that now it is harder to hide the bad things we do. America was never the good guys, a country is always going to look out for its people usually at the detriment of everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/16 "2010-05-06T22:20:13Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > The US did not have a policy of fire-bombing cities to kill civilians (as far as I know), but there is always judgement in any military decision. In your second post you mention the “fog of war”. Rent “The Fog of War” sometime, and let McNamara telly you about himself. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/17 "2010-05-06T23:05:37Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Sigh, the only thing that has changed is that now it is harder to hide the bad things we do. America was never the good guys, a country is always going to look out for its people usually at the detriment of everyone else. So countries are always the same. No country is better than another, and at no point in time is a country better than at any other point in time. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/18 "2010-05-06T23:11:31Z")
No one defends “torture.” Lots of people (including me) defend the use of enhanced interrogation techniques. If you read the memos that were released, you will see that these techniques were carefully planned and scripted actions, they weren’t just beating people willy nilly. Also, on the larger point, the idea of a country being “good” or “bad” in some objective sense is idiotic, and thinking about it is a fruitless endeavour. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/19 "2010-05-06T23:27:00Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > No one defends “torture.” Sure you do. You’re doing it right now. Your favored euphemism is just a window dressing for waterboarding some poor bastard 200+ times. That’s torture. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/20 "2010-05-06T23:35:11Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > If you read the memos that were released, you will see that these techniques were carefully planned and scripted actions, they weren’t just beating people willy nilly. “Boy, you guys sure got me… all this time, I thought I was being tortured, but I was just being _ **Punk’d** _!” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550.md?page=2)