# I Remember When America was Good **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 6, 2010, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550 "2010-05-06T20:35:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/21 "2010-05-06T23:44:13Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Sure you do. You’re doing it right now. Your favored euphemism is just a window dressing for waterboarding some poor bastard 200+ times. That’s torture. Until some court with appropriate jurisdiction says that those acts were torture under applicable law, they weren’t torture, even if you think they were. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2010, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/22 "2010-05-06T23:45:48Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Until some court with appropriate jurisdiction says that those acts were torture under applicable law, they weren’t torture, even if you think they were. This might be one of the stupidest things I’ve ever seen on the Internet. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/23 "2010-05-07T00:05:32Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Until some court with appropriate jurisdiction says that those acts were torture under applicable law, they weren’t torture, even if you think they were. I suspect it would take about two seconds of waterboarding for you to change your tune on this and to enthusiastically confess that you’re actually a min-wage tray-scraper at Fuddrucker’s. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/24 "2010-05-07T00:07:05Z")
Sounds like an interrogator had just watched _American History X_ followed by _Death Wish_ and decided to weave them. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/25 "2010-05-07T00:13:58Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > This might be one of the stupidest things I’ve ever seen on the Internet. I assume you meant to add “except for an entire message board that is a low-budget no-traffic copy-out of another message board.” Also, when considering what to do with that prehensile tongue of yours, please remember that I prefer syrup. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/26 "2010-05-07T00:21:49Z")
People who support torture are scumbags. People who pretend it isn’t torture so they don’t have to admit they support torture are really, really stupid scumbags who might possibly be fooling their fellow scumbags, but no one else. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/27 "2010-05-07T00:34:00Z")
/a/ was never good. ---
**Author:** ![The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_King_of_Soup)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/28 "2010-05-07T00:38:01Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > No one defends “torture.” Lots of people (including me) defend the use of enhanced interrogation techniques. If you read the memos that were released, you will see that these techniques were carefully planned and scripted actions, they weren’t just beating people willy nilly… It ain’t torture if it’s planned and scripted? Great, you’ve just invented the Nuremberg-Plus defense: “We were only following beautifully detailed written orders!” I can, and I mean this, hardly wait to see it tried. [QUOTE=Rand Rover] …Also, on the larger point, the idea of a country being “good” or “bad” in some objective sense is idiotic, and thinking about it is a fruitless endeavour. [/QUOTE] There are times when I’ve suspected a poster of hypocrisy, but I think that this description of your conclusion followed by a characterization of your method is spot-on. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/29 "2010-05-07T00:44:03Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > People who support torture are scumbags. People who pretend it isn’t torture so they don’t have to admit they support torture are really, really stupid scumbags who might possibly be fooling their fellow scumbags, but no one else. And anyone who thinks an action is torture just because they say so is a complete imbecile. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/30 "2010-05-07T00:58:31Z")
And if it hadn’t been for torture, we never would have uncovered all those witches who were sending their spirits out to kill Christian babies. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/31 "2010-05-07T01:09:59Z")
For some people thinking about\* anything \*is a fruitless endeavour. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/32 "2010-05-07T01:20:04Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > And anyone who thinks an action is torture just because they say so is a complete imbecile. Not until some court with the appropriate jurisdiction says so, to paraphrase an imbecile. Give it up RR. You got called on your lie, and bluster won’t get you out of that. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/33 "2010-05-07T01:25:10Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > No one defends “torture.” Lots of people (including me) defend the use of enhanced interrogation techniques. If you read the memos that were released, you will see that these techniques were carefully planned and scripted actions, they weren’t just beating people willy nilly. Torture doesn’t count if it’s planned out in advance? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/34 "2010-05-07T01:41:49Z")
> [@](#): > > Remember when America was the good guys? Not really, no. For much of my life (all of it really), I’ve seen the US reviled abroad, called every name in the book, etc etc. I grew up during the Vietnam war, saw the perennial protests throughout Europe and Korea against the foul US and our evil ways, seen American’s put down in every way under the sun (even, or perhaps especially by ourselves). So…when was America the ‘good guys’? Perhaps it was in the 50’s, which was before my time. Or, perhaps in the 50’s we simply didn’t care what others thought, being self absorbed with our own goodness and light… > [@](#): > > Some day you can describe it to your kids What I tell my kids is that reality happens, and no country is inherently ‘good’, or can always be the ‘good guys’…especially when they are a super power. The US, on the whole and with some remarkably horrible exceptions, has always TRIED to be good or do the right things, but they do so in the context of the perceived or real needs of the citizens and in the reality of being a nation state, who sometime has to (or chooses to) do what is expedient over what is ‘right’. Countries who do no harm, who are the ‘good guys’ are probably countries that are bit players on the worlds stage…they can AFFORD to be the ‘good guys’ because their actions don’t really matter, when all is said and done. As they become more powerful, however, they have to make choices, some of which are bound to piss off some non-zero percentage of The World™’s population. And as they become super powers this only magnifies. That said, I’m pretty unhappy (to say the least) about some of the things that were done in our collective names in the last decade. I’m just realistic enough to know that the only difference is that these things have come to light this time, and this alone doesn’t make us suddenly the bad guys, or that prior to this we were considered to be the good guys by any but those who had their heads buried in the sand. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/35 "2010-05-07T01:41:59Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It’s OK to coldly premeditate the killing of 10s of thousands of civilians, but not OK to torture a few? I’d rather be told a scary story about prison rape than have my whole family killed. YMMV. Well we were in an official war with Nazi Germany when we did the bombing. It’s not like we fire-bombed Shangri-La. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/36 "2010-05-07T01:45:12Z")
Just for record, Rand Rover, you support Water Boarding? Congratulations, you’re in agreement with Japanese war criminal [Yukio Asano](http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~warcrime/Japan/Yokohama/Reviews/Yokohama_Review_Asano.htm). > [@](#): > > Defendant: Asano, Yukio > Docket Date: 53/ May 1 - 28, 1947, Yokohama, Japan > > Charge: Violation of the Laws and Customs of War: 1. Did willfully and unlawfully mistreat and torture PWs. 2. Did unlawfully take and convert to his own use Red Cross packages and supplies intended for PWs. > > Specifications:beating using hands, fists, club; kicking; **water torture** ; burning using cigarettes; strapping on a stretcher head downward (bolding mine) Was his conviction for water torture unjust? Was he okay for subjecting [American service personal to](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=15886834#15900592): > [@](#): > > Navarro: When Yuki could not get anything out of me, he wanted the interpreter to place me down below. And I was told by Yuki to take off all my clothes, so what I did was to take off my clothes as ordered. I was ordered to lay on a bench and Yuki tied my feet, hands and neck to that bench, lying with my face upward. After I was tied to the bench, Yuki placed some cloth on my face. And then with water from the faucet, they poured on me until I became unconscious. He repeated that four or five times. > > You mean he brought water and poured water down your throat? > > No sir, on my face, until I became unconscious. We were lying that way, with some cloth on my face, and then Yuki poured water on my face continuously. > > And you couldn’t breathe? > > No, I could not, and so I, for a time, lost consciousness. I found my consciousness came back again and found Yuki was sitting on my stomach. And then I vomited the water from my stomach, and the consciousness came back again for me. > > Where did the water come out when he sat on your stomach? > > From my mouth and all openings of my face … and then Yuki would repeat the same treatment and the same procedure to me until I became unconscious again. > > How many times did that happen? > > Around four or five times, from two o’clock up to four o’clock in the afternoon. When I was not able to endure his punishment which I received, I told a lie to Yuki … . I could not really show anything to Yuki, because I was really lying just to stop the torture. So **Rand Rover** are you calling this man a lair when he says he was tortured? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/37 "2010-05-07T01:51:26Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Not until some court with the appropriate jurisdiction says so, to paraphrase an imbecile. > Give it up RR. You got called on your lie, and bluster won’t get you out of that. What was my “lie,” exactly? > [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Just for record, Rand Rover, you support Water Boarding? I don’t have a big problem with the waterboarding of terrorism suspects under the Bush admin protocols as revealed in the disclosed memos. > [@](#): > > So **Rand Rover** are you calling this man a lair when he says he was tortured? I don’t understand the question. All I’m saying is that “torture” is a legal concept. You can decide that an action is “torture,” but that doesn’t mean you’re right. It doesn’t meant that someone who thinks it’s OK to do that action “supports torture.” ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/38 "2010-05-07T01:58:05Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > What was my “lie,” exactly? Well, I have my personal doubts that you ever go roving anywhere. > [@](#): > > I don’t have a big problem with the waterboarding of terrorism suspects under the Bush admin protocols as revealed in the disclosed memos. Why does the suspected crime matter? Not to seem naive or anything, but how far down the scale of suspicion can someone be for you start having a problem with waterboarding? Suspected killer? Rapist? Kidnapper? Armed robber? > [@](#): > > I don’t understand the question. All I’m saying is that “torture” is a legal concept. You can decide that an action is “torture,” but that doesn’t mean you’re right. It doesn’t meant that someone who thinks it’s OK to do that action “supports torture.” Is waterboarding (that is to say, repeatedly giving someone the experience of drowning) torture or not? Do you really need to wait for a judge to weigh in on the subject? Are all your opinions subject to judicial review? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/39 "2010-05-07T02:39:07Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Sigh, the only thing that has changed is that now it is harder to hide the bad things we do. America was never the good guys, a country is always going to look out for its people usually at the detriment of everyone else. That’s not true. Some countries look out for their rulers to the detriment of their people. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/40 "2010-05-07T02:40:21Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Black guys and Nazis! Working togther! Mass Hysteria! That was in _Gravity’s Rainbow_, wasn’t it? _Schwarzkommando_ or something like. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550.md?page=3)