# I Remember When America was Good **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 6, 2010, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550 "2010-05-06T20:35:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/41 "2010-05-07T02:41:53Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > OK, let’s take this question seriously. When was America “Good”? When was this happy time when we were better than we are now? Not sure myself, but let’s ask **Starving Artist**. He seems to know. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/42 "2010-05-07T02:44:58Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > What was my “lie,” exactly? > > I don’t have a big problem with the waterboarding of terrorism suspects under the Bush admin protocols as revealed in the disclosed memos. > > I don’t understand the question. All I’m saying is that “torture” is a legal concept. You can decide that an action is “torture,” but that doesn’t mean you’re right. It doesn’t meant that someone who thinks it’s OK to do that action “supports torture.” You did read the part where his torturer was convicted for torture, right? Do you still wish to claim water boarding isn’t legally torture? Answer the fucking question, you illiterate craven coward, are you morally okay with imperial Japan water boarding allied prisoners? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/43 "2010-05-07T02:48:48Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > OK, let’s take this question seriously. When was America “Good”? When was this happy time when we were better than we are now? The Clinton Administration. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/44 "2010-05-07T02:52:48Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > You did read the part where his torturer was convicted for torture, right? Do you still wish to claim water boarding isn’t legally torture? > > Answer the fucking question, you illiterate craven coward, are you morally okay with imperial Japan water boarding allied prisoners? Well, if we’re being technical, Japan was torturing prisoners of war, which is wrong. If you can define the people you captured as something else, like enemy combatants, then what you do to them isn’t torture, it’s redefined as something else, like freedom-questioning. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/45 "2010-05-07T02:57:46Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > That was in _Gravity’s Rainbow_, wasn’t it? _Schwarzkommando_ or something like. Well, _Die Geisterjäger_, actually. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/46 "2010-05-07T03:01:23Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Answer the fucking question, you illiterate craven coward, are you morally okay with imperial Japan water boarding allied prisoners? Of course not–if they do it it’s bad. But that doesn’t meant that if we do it it’s also bad. We are we and they are they, after all. You don’t want to get me started on Japan and Germany, really. I think they should thank their lucky stars that they are both not glowing parking lots right now. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/47 "2010-05-07T03:08:50Z")
I want to get you started on Germany and Japan. It should be good for a few laughs. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/48 "2010-05-07T03:10:48Z")
Well, I think I blew my wad in my first post on the subject, unfortunately. I’m not sure where to go from “glowing parking lots.” ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/49 "2010-05-07T03:11:53Z")
You know, they wouldn’t actually be glowing parking lots until a judge _said_ they were… ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/50 "2010-05-07T03:12:41Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > US, under Bush, did have a policy of torture, and that was a change to tradition. If it were just one guy it’d be different, this is just an example of a policy issued from the White House. It wasn’t just Bush who had a policy of torture. Ask a Salvadora circa. 1983. And if you think America was good at a time prior, you must not be an 18th century African in the south or a 19th century Native American on the plains. America being good is a myth we are fed from childhood. Its hard to let go. ---
**Author:** ![sinjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@sinjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinjin)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/51 "2010-05-07T03:28:20Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Of course not–if they do it it’s bad. But that doesn’t meant that if we do it it’s also bad. We are we and they are they, after all. hahahahahahaahahaha. Thanks for the laughs. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/52 "2010-05-07T03:33:41Z")
We did plenty wrong in the old days but we were not proud of it. We did not flaunt the atrocities we did in WW1, Vietnam or any other war. We still did some. But Bush/Cheney were proud to announce we would torture and take away peoples rights. They were happy to be the group that would ignore the old values. It was not doing the acts that changed. it was saying we would and we liked it. The example of America being different and something to strive for has been killed. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/53 "2010-05-07T03:36:53Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > We did plenty wrong in the old days but we were not proud of it. We did not flaunt the atrocities we did in WW1, Vietnam or any other war. We still did some. But Bush/Cheney were proud to announce we would torture and take away peoples rights. They were happy to be the group that would ignore the old values. It was not doing the acts that changed. it was saying we would and we liked it. > The example of America being different and something to strive for has been killed. It’s always been dead for everyone except us. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/54 "2010-05-07T03:37:51Z")
Oh boy, gonzomax is here. I’d better bow out of this thred. It has reaxched intellectual heights for which I am no match. Also, sinjin, it’s the twoof. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/55 "2010-05-07T04:27:29Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Of course not–if they do it it’s bad. But that doesn’t meant that if we do it it’s also bad. We are we and they are they, after all. > > You don’t want to get me started on Japan and Germany, really. I think they should thank their lucky stars that they are both not glowing parking lots right now. Why is it okay if we torture, but not them? This aught to be good. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/56 "2010-05-07T06:02:51Z")
You are old. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/57 "2010-05-07T06:08:33Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You are old. That’s true. I also remember penny candy, vacuum tube diagnosers at the drug stores, Coke in small green bottles, and a responsible news media. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/58 "2010-05-07T08:17:13Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I’m not an American, but it seems odd to me to state that, bad as it is, one nasty guard scaring this guy with fake rape stories is morally _worse_ for the country than having an offical wartime policy of fire-bombing cities and burning thousands of innocent civilians alive. Historical context, dude. It’s much worse when the atrocities you are committing are deplorable by the standards of the time in which you commit them. The world has pretty much united in opposition to torture, but there was no such consensus with firebombing. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/59 "2010-05-07T08:20:22Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > That’s true. I also remember penny candy, vacuum tube diagnosers at the drug stores, Coke in small green bottles, and a responsible news media. A responsible news media compared to when? Information is so much more easily accessible now that it’s hard to take that last comment seriously. Reporters are cracking open news-worthy political bombshells at least as vigorously as any time in history. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/60 "2010-05-07T08:59:12Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I’m not an American, but it seems odd to me to state that, bad as it is, one nasty guard scaring this guy with fake rape stories is morally _worse_ for the country than having an offical wartime policy of fire-bombing cities and burning thousands of innocent civilians alive. Those innocent civilians were at least working to keep Hitler’s war machine alive. You can’t make the same justification for torturing people you have already taken out of action, or haven’t even bothered to determine that they’re your enemy at all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550.md?page=4)