# I Remember When America was Good **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 6, 2010, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550 "2010-05-06T20:35:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/61 "2010-05-07T10:47:53Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Those innocent civilians were at least working to keep Hitler’s war machine alive. What, the babies, too? ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/62 "2010-05-07T11:21:23Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > What, the babies, too? German infants were put in the factories almost immediately. Give me a bit to find my cite. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/63 "2010-05-07T11:29:42Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > That’s true. I also remember penny candy, vacuum tube diagnosers at the drug stores, Coke in small green bottles, and a responsible news media. Holy crap, _I’m_ old. Thanks so much, **Dan** - as if the UK election hadn’t depressed me enough today. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/64 "2010-05-07T13:39:47Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Oh boy, gonzomax is here. I’d better bow out of this thred. It has reaxched intellectual heights for which I am no match. . That’s pretty much true any time two or more of us are together and you’re among us. So relax; it hasn’t stopped you so far. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/65 "2010-05-07T13:50:25Z")
> [@newcrasher](#): > > America being good is a myth we are fed from childhood. Its hard to let go. I’m reminded of a post of mine from a few years back, when one of our resident wingnuts accused me of blaming America just because. The larger point is that while America has usually been far from its ideals, I think the myth of America’s goodness is a useful one, because some of us who buy into the myth and then find that America doesn’t live up to it, will respond by insisting that America become the good nation it’s supposed to be. That insistence may at times sound overly critical of America, but IMHO the problem is when America fails to live up to its ideals, not when it’s criticized for that failure. > [@"All-Out Civil War in Iraq: Could It Be a Good Thing?" (Fox News)](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-out-civil-war-in-iraq-could-it-be-a-good-thing-fox-news/345997/49): > > Well, y’know, some people watch _American Idol_, and some of us sit at our computers and think of new things to blame America for. 😉 > > Getting past the kidding, though: > > I have, for all of my life, assumed America was the Good Guys in the world. My worldview in this regard was formed before Vietnam took center stage in our foreign policy in the mid-1960s, in a time when we were the country that won WWII (I’m talking about my _perceptions as a kid_, here, so no need to talk about Russia’s role) and WWI before that, and was now protecting the world from the evils of totalitarian Communism. > > And on account of that legacy, I expect America to live up to that sort of ideal, or at least give it its best shot. I demand of my country that it not be just strong, but to use its strength on the side of what is right and good. > > That view of America has taken some hits over the years, of course. It’s had to survive Vietnam, Nixon-Kissinger _realpolitik_, our support of numerous anticommunist tinhorn dictators like Marcos, Pinochet, Somoza, Saddam, and the Shah, and that flock of neocon surrogate wars during the 1980s: El Salvador, Nicaragua, Angola. I had to believe there was a better way of fighting Communism than by supporting ‘authoritarian’ (you’re welcome, Jeane Kirkpatrick) thugs around the world: _we_ got democracy; El Salvador got Roberto D’Aubuisson. > > But I didn’t think America _was_ evil; America was _good_, but for often difficult to understand reasons, it was _doing_ wrong. What do you do about it? You call a spade a spade: you say what’s wrong and what’s right, and you expect your country to get back on the right track. > > And there were some positive developments along the way. Jimmy Carter, for all his other failings, insisted that we look at how _all_ countries, not just Communist ones, were falling short on human rights, and take that into account in our foreign policy. The Helsinki Accords, excoriated by conservatives at the time, gave us some leverage to demand of the USSR that some degree of human rights be accorded to its Warsaw Pact vassals. And while Reagan had far too many neocon nutcases running his foreign policy (Richard Perle, Elliott Abrams), Reagan’s heart really was in the right place - he believed in freedom not just as a slogan but as a fundamental human right - and his policies gradually caught up. Along about 1983, he and his team came to the realization that D’Aubuisson was a murderous thug, and lined up behind Duarte instead; when crunch time came in the Phillippines in 1985, he helped nudge Marcos out; in 1987, he and Carter combined to hornswoggle Daniel Ortega into holding elections - and honoring them, when they didn’t go his way; and, most significantly, when he finally had a Soviet opposite number in Gorbachev who actually believed Communism should benefit the people living under it, he had the right combination of willingness to take diplomatic chances while maintaining public pressure to hasten the moment when the Wall would come down - a moment that most of us who grew up during the Cold War weren’t sure we’d live to see. > > And then of course Clinton, without a Cold War foe to reckon with, gradually found his footing, and put the United States on the right side of things in Bosnia and Kosovo. > > So I believe America can do great things in the world when it is good as well as strong. And I believe that when America is doing evil, and we call it by its name, America will eventually respond, and find its way back to the light. > > So when America turns into a swaggering bully in the world, invading other countries without knowing WTF it’s doing and what forces it’s unleashing, let alone having a plan to deal with them, I will call it evil, and demand that America stop doing evil and do good. I will do the same when we imprison people for years when we have zero evidence that they’ve done anything hostile to us, and when we torture people, and send them off to other countries to be tortured. And when we bomb the shit out of civilians along with insurgents - insurgents who would have had little support for their insurgency if we simply weren’t there. And when our government spies on its own people without any legal authority or oversight. I want the country I’ve lived in all my life to deserve to wear the white hat again, and I want leaders who believe in the goodness of America in a way that causes them in turn to demand the best out of America - rather than believing that whatever America does is automatically good because it’s America that’s doing it. > > So if I’m critical of America, it’s because I’m a fucking idealist, and for some reason, despite everything I’ve seen in my life where it’s fallen short, America is still one of the things I’m an idealist about. It’s totally irrational, and it makes no sense, but there it is. Footnote: I got the Nicaragua date wrong; it was 1990, not 1987. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/66 "2010-05-07T14:02:25Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > Why is the effect it has on the torturing country important? Seems to me the effect it has on the people being tortured is more important. Because the moral effect on the country as a whole is the topic of this thread, perhaps? As in “I remember when America was good?” ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/67 "2010-05-07T14:08:00Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > The US did not have a policy of fire-bombing cities to kill civilians (as far as I know), but there is always judgement in any military decision. They most certainly did. “Precision bombing” of purely military targets was tried and judged ineffective. Thus, the switch to using incindiaries to deliberately burn out whole cities, if possible. > [@](#): > > The US, under Bush, did have a policy of torture, and that was a change to tradition. If it were just one guy it’d be different, this is just an example of a policy issued from the White House. If the torture by this guard was in line with gov’t policy, it seems odd that the guard was court-martialled and thrown in jail for it. > [@](#): > > No. 1 acknowledged serving five months in prison after he pleaded guilty in 2005 to abusing two other prisoners at Bagram ---
**Author:** ![Tully\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7ab992/32.png) [@Tully\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tully_Mars)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/68 "2010-05-07T14:12:08Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > Remember when America was the good guys? Some day you can describe it to your kids. Longing for The Good Olde Days, eh? How very conservative of you. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/69 "2010-05-07T14:15:26Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > Historical context, dude. It’s much worse when the atrocities you are committing are deplorable by the standards of the time in which you commit them. The world has pretty much united in opposition to torture, but there was no such consensus with firebombing. Heh, that makes no sense as an argument; prior to WW2, Americans were _horrified_ by deliberate attacks on civilians, and were united in opposition to same. See, for example, the reaction of Americans to the “Rape of Nanking”, to Japanese bombing of Chinese cities, to the bombing of Spanish cities such as Guernica in the Spanish Civil War … moreover, the “whole world” (as in the League of Nations) felt the same. The “historical standards”, right up to actual US involvement, were that such things were _not acceptable_. They certainly were not acceptable to Americans. If what you are saying is that “we were now at war, and so excusable” … well, presumably Bush & Co. would make exactly the same excuse. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/70 "2010-05-07T14:30:34Z")
Malthus, what are you searching for exactly? You seem to be looking for some objectively justifiable reason for America’s action. The only truth here is: we are good because we are we, they are bad because they are they. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/71 "2010-05-07T14:36:32Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > A responsible news media compared to when? “Remember the Maine!” ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/72 "2010-05-07T14:55:11Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > It’s always been dead for everyone except us. I don’t think that is true. When we went into Iraq ,the civilians had hope that the values we pretend to have ,would be held. I think most of the world was pleased we at least claimed to have higher values. We said the right things. We did plenty wrong . Now we try to find a justification for doing torture . It requires people like Rover to make it work. People who will find a way to defend the reprehensible, justify the unthinkable and blithely accept the lowering of values. We know full well we committed atrocities. But like Mai Lai we we did punish a few perpetrators. We fried a few guards for zealously stepping over the imaginary line of prisoner mistreatment in Iraq. That is something. Bush was happy to justify torture. He tried to find a way to redefine torture so he could do it. Most of us know better and are a little ashamed of our actions in Gitmo and Iraq. Some .like Rover ,are still doing the dance. Like porn, we know it when we see it. But if you can define it away, it didn’t happen. It did . ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/73 "2010-05-07T15:04:04Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > As bad as Gitmo may be, we’ve committed atrocities in all the wars we’ve been involved in. And so has every other nation/tribe/interest group who has ever engaged in warfare. Like Sherman said: “War is hell”. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/74 "2010-05-07T15:07:03Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > In retrospect bombing Dresden was not a good idea. Nor was the Germans doing the same to Coventry, first. Dresden was retaliation for Coventry. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/75 "2010-05-07T15:13:14Z")
It’s amazing how people defending America can actually use “everybody does it” as an excuse and expect to be taken seriously. And the “everyone is a monster, don’t bother to feel any sympathy” argument falls flat even on its own terms since the people who claim that suddenly forget it when we get attacked. WE get attacked, and all of a sudden it’s a big deal; if the people making such excuses really meant it then they would have reacted to 9-11 with indifference. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/76 "2010-05-07T15:34:04Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Malthus, what are you searching for exactly? You seem to be looking for some objectively justifiable reason for America’s action. > > The only truth here is: we are good because we are we, they are bad because they are they. I see. IOKIADI.\* That makes no sense at all - it’s just brute tribalism. I prefer a “by their works shall ye know them” approach, personally. \*It’s OK if America does it. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/77 "2010-05-07T15:35:27Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > German infants were put in the factories almost immediately. Give me a bit to find my cite. Err, I seriously doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/78 "2010-05-07T15:54:00Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > No one defends “torture.” Lots of people (including me) defend the use of enhanced interrogation techniques. If you read the memos that were released, you will see that these techniques were carefully planned and scripted actions, they weren’t just beating people willy nilly. What a weird standard. I guess Saddam’s rape rooms where, as the name implies, there were very carefully planned rapes, weren’t torture. > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > What was my “lie,” exactly? > > I don’t have a big problem with the waterboarding of terrorism suspects under the Bush admin protocols as revealed in the disclosed memos. > > I don’t understand the question. All I’m saying is that “torture” is a legal concept. You can decide that an action is “torture,” but that doesn’t mean you’re right. It doesn’t meant that someone who thinks it’s OK to do that action “supports torture.” Torture is both an action (there are certainly unambiguous things 99.9% of us would agree are torture) and a legal concept. So is murder. If you saw me shoot someone in front of you, am I not a murderer until a judge declares me so? All of this “it’s not torture if no one was convicted! Or we can find other words to describe it!” stuff is the most morally reprehensible, and intellectually weak line of bullshit ever. I actually expect more from you - you should be less of a weasel. If you support torture, then just come out and say it, don’t hide behind cute euphemisms and technicalities. Incidentally, I do think the US has tried to do well by the world for most of its history. I think this “all countries are the same” stuff is bullshit. The US is not morally equivelant to North Korea. I mean - really, if I asked you who were the good guys during the Cold War, even though you could point to specific distasteful or wrong actions, would you honestly not clearly understand that it was the west? The fact that this torture thing is a fiasco and huge hubbub, where in other parts of the world it’s routine and unremarkable, shows that there are different standards at work here, that the US does try and mostly succeeds at being the good guy historically, and it’s just that much more noticible when we’re the bad guy. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/79 "2010-05-07T15:54:40Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I see. IOKIADI.\* That makes no sense at all No, what doesn’t make any sense is searching and stretching and philosophizing to try and show how it’s objectively good if we do it and objectively bad if they do it. Just accept that we are we and they are they and that’s how it is. > [@](#): > > - it’s just brute tribalism. So? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2010, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/80 "2010-05-07T15:58:38Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Torture is both an action (there are certainly unambiguous things 99.9% of us would agree are torture) and a legal concept. So is murder. If you saw me shoot someone in front of you, am I not a murderer until a judge declares me so? That’s an excellent example. On those facts alone, it is impossible to determine whether or not your actions constitute “murder.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550.md?page=5)