# I Remember When America was Good **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 6, 2010, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550 "2010-05-06T20:35:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/121 "2010-05-08T00:40:28Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > Not in [my](http://www.nysrpa.org/nygunlaws.htm) town. Oh, Well: Blow gun and pet Poison dart frog. Silent, deadly, and the frog makes an excellent pet. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/122 "2010-05-08T00:42:11Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Well, when people say “it’s torture,” I take that to mean they are saying “violative of the laws against torture.” But if you just want to think they mean that it’s “torture” in the abstract, just for purposes of the meaning of that word, and not in any legal sense whatsoever, and only as they themselves define it, then that’s OK too, I guess. I am pretty comfortable with the idea that people can talk about things that may appear somewhere in the law in ways that aren’t making factually legal claims. Since social preferences often end up enshrined in law thanks to our handy system of government, it’s not the craziest kind of conversation to have. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/123 "2010-05-08T00:44:30Z")
Interesting philosophy. Not exactly meta-ethical, or normative moral relativism - sort of a new flavor. It could be called Sociopathic moral relativism. “Whatever act we do is moral, whatever act they do is not.” Even if the act is identical. The ultimate subset of “we” would, in fact, be “I”. It’s the ultimate justification for doing whatever the fuck you want, while simultaneously being able to decry that behaviour in others. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/124 "2010-05-08T00:47:15Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > What do you mean by “false”? > > But I know what you are getting at–the idea that laws are informed by morals, that people enact laws that reflect their morals. Well, I’d say that people enact laws that reflect their preferences about how others behave. If you want to call those preferences “morals,” then that’s fine, but you should realize there’s no objective reality to them. I actually don’t even care whether there is “objective reality” to individual preference or not. They have reality simply because people believe them and make decisions based on them. I’m interested in the linguistic and analytical issues raised by emotivism, and if Hume had written Harry Potter slash I’d probably read it and like it. But personally and professionally, I am far more interested in how individual preferences actually get aggregated into social preference. Edited to add that emotivism is absolutely meta-ethical. Though perhaps I am being a little charitable when I assume that Rand has read Stevenson, etc and cares about ideas and is not just finding superficial philosophical justifications for behavior that most people find distasteful. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/125 "2010-05-08T00:50:00Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Interesting philosophy. Not exactly meta-ethical, or normative moral relativism - sort of a new flavor. It could be called Sociopathic moral relativism. “Whatever act we do is moral, whatever act they do is not.” Even if the act is identical. The ultimate subset of “we” would, in fact, be “I”. > > It’s the ultimate justification for doing whatever the fuck you want, while simultaneously being able to decry that behaviour in others. I actually think this is fairly accurate (except that emotivism absolutely is meta-ethical). Nice job, EP. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/126 "2010-05-08T01:26:31Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Still? Yes, actually. **Rand Rover** may have some unpleasant political views, but he usually at least has the balls and decency to call them for what they are and stand by them, knowing he’ll get flak. So when he comes out with a pro-torture stance, I actually expect him to acknowledge it as a pro-torture stance and then justify it from there. Him clinging to the weasely “enhanced interrogation” bullshit is actually somewhat out of character for him, hence me saying I expect more from him. I often disagree with him, but I acknowledge that he usually has the balls to at least come out and clearly identify his controversial positions. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/127 "2010-05-08T02:36:38Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Interesting philosophy. Not exactly meta-ethical, or normative moral relativism - sort of a new flavor. It could be called Sociopathic moral relativism. “Whatever act we do is moral, whatever act they do is not.” Even if the act is identical. The ultimate subset of “we” would, in fact, be “I”. > > It’s the ultimate justification for doing whatever the fuck you want, while simultaneously being able to decry that behaviour in others. Yes but around here we have a simple phrase for that. It’s “thinking your shit don’t stink”. Also it robs **Rand Rover** of all moral right to complain about things. Legal right too. I mean why do"they" need free speech? We can tax him all we want. I mean he’s one of “them” so it’s okay! I say we tax him at 110% until his assets run out. Then send him to split rocks. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/128 "2010-05-08T02:40:28Z")
Ooooh, “moral right,” that sounds like it means something or something. Too bad it doesn’t. I can point that that taxing me at 110% is a bad idea for our society. Nothing I’ve said contradicts that. I just don’t think that my preference for not being taxed at 110% or my feeling that it’s bad for society to do so qualifies as some objective truth. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/129 "2010-05-08T02:44:05Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Ooooh, “moral right,” that sounds like it means something or something. Too bad it doesn’t. > > I can point that that taxing me at 110% is a bad idea for our society. Nothing I’ve said contradicts that. I just don’t think that my preference for not being taxed at 110% or my feeling that it’s bad for society to do so qualifies as some objective truth. Not society, just you, and possibly Paris Hilton. Since under your system morals are so personalized, nothing to protect you from the tyranny of majority. You will be our bitch. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/130 "2010-05-08T03:10:51Z")
I remember when _you couldn’t carry_ five dollars worth of corned beef!!! ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/131 "2010-05-08T04:51:37Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > That’s not why we have morals–that’s why we have laws and police (to protect members of our society from each other) and militaries (to protect our society from others). No, that is exactly why we have morals, to the extent that anyone can explain why they have morals. Morals are biologically derived, though obviously parsed through a social filter. And morals are sets of behaviors designed to make societies runs smoothly. Societies run more smoothly when people aren’t killing each other all the time. They also foster mutual protection between people, meaning that any individual protects himself by acting morally even if the mechanism for it is not obvious. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/132 "2010-05-08T05:17:31Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Well, when people say “it’s torture,” I take that to mean they are saying “violative of the laws against torture.” But if you just want to think they mean that it’s “torture” in the abstract, just for purposes of the meaning of that word, and not in any legal sense whatsoever, and only as they themselves define it, then that’s OK too, I guess. Eleven soldiers got convicted of torture and prisoner abuse in Abu Grebe. That makes it torture in a moral and a legal sense. They were convicted. That is no longer abstract. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/133 "2010-05-08T14:23:18Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > No, that is exactly why we have morals, to the extent that anyone can explain why they have morals. Morals are biologically derived, though obviously parsed through a social filter. And morals are sets of behaviors designed to make societies runs smoothly. Societies run more smoothly when people aren’t killing each other all the time. They also foster mutual protection between people, meaning that any individual protects himself by acting morally even if the mechanism for it is not obvious. I agree with everything you said if you understand that “morals” in the post above just means “an individual’s preferences for their own and others’ behavior.” ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/134 "2010-05-08T15:02:02Z")
So **RR** doesn’t believe in consensus morality? That’s unsurprising. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/135 "2010-05-08T15:04:52Z")
What is “consensus morality”? ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/136 "2010-05-08T16:14:25Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > What is “consensus morality”? Wouldn’t that be akin to agreements like the Geneva Convention that cross national borders and cultures whereby all parties agree not to do certain shit to each other because its universally agreed upon to be immoral? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/137 "2010-05-08T16:33:27Z")
I don’t think its very nice of you guys to throw around these fancy, five dollar words like “consensus” just to confuse poor ol’ **Randy**. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/138 "2010-05-08T17:08:21Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I don’t think its very nice of you guys to throw around these fancy, five dollar words like “consensus” just to confuse poor ol’ **Randy**. Yep, you got me, that’s the word that tripped me up . . . The problem is that people like to use the word “moral” or “morality” in conjunction with all kinds of other words and pretend that the pair means one thing and one thing only that everyone should agree on (lest they be called something bad, like a sociopath etc.). For example: moral obligation, moral right, moral responsibility, morally responsible, etc. and etc. ad nauseum. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/139 "2010-05-08T17:10:04Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Wouldn’t that be akin to agreements like the Geneva Convention that cross national borders and cultures whereby all parties agree not to do certain shit to each other because its universally agreed upon to be immoral? I don’t know. What you described sounds like an “agreement” to me. I don’t know what the word “consensus morality” has to do with anything. I guess it could mean “the rules people have decided to obey pursuant to an agreement,” but MrDibble could mean something else. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2010, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/140 "2010-05-08T18:28:57Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I don’t know. What you described sounds like an “agreement” to me. I don’t know what the word “consensus morality” has to do with anything. I guess it could mean “the rules people have decided to obey pursuant to an agreement,” but MrDibble could mean something else. Well of course its an agreement…and so are the creation of laws for that matter (a consensus!). But the framework of an agreement like the Geneva Convention exists due to morality. Things like agreeing to treat POW’s in a humanitarian (moral) way. Not using larger than “x” sized caliber rounds against personnel because it cuts a man in half (moral)…etcetera. Don’t murder, its against the law (immoral). They aren’t mutually exclusive, law and morality, they often beget one another. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550.md?page=8)