# I Remember When America was Good **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 6, 2010, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550 "2010-05-06T20:35:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/161 "2010-05-10T11:09:37Z")
Is it rhubarb pie? ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/162 "2010-05-10T11:20:06Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Is it rhubarb pie? Rhubarb torture. Death by rhubarb. “Dude, you’ve been 'barbed!”. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/163 "2010-05-10T12:03:33Z")
Hmm. Pie or torture, cake or death… Always choose the baked goods, say I. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/164 "2010-05-10T13:44:07Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I don’t get this at all. If someone were to “follow my logic,” what would they do exactly? Be a torture supporting hypocritical douchbag, ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/165 "2010-05-10T14:15:53Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > This is idiotic. Most people prefer not to kill peoplen, and they prefer to live in a society where there is a law against willy-nilly killing people. They may also believe that whether an action is moral or not is something that can be determined objectively (which is not true). > > If they stop believing that the morality of an action can be determined objectively, why would their preferences change? Hey degenerate offspring of a desperate whore. Maybe in pretend lawyer school they didn’t cover history, but at one point we had things like slavery, and all manor of bad thing. Domestic violence was okay. Rape probably the woman’s fault. Natives were killed, ethnic cleansed, and the like. You find nothing wrong with times? Was it okay because their group, not yours? It was the popular action of a voting public (nonwhites, and females need not apply) Also your morality is the very reason people find hypocrites such as yourself lower then septic tank scum. You have a very selfish form of cowardice. “water board the arab children! Threaten to gang rape 15 year olds! but oh noes don’t do that to me!” You’re a fucking pussy. You’re a brute and a coward. Let me ask you this. Do you feel the slightest bit of guilt that you’re supporting a 15 year old child being tortured with water boarding, and threatened with being raped to death? Let me ask you this. Now I know you wouldn’t do such a thing, but let’s say you and your neighbor (a nice shirt off his back if need it kinda of guy) are competing for some job. One night you sneak over, cut the tag on his electric meter, and make it look like he tempered with it to get free electric. You turn him, he goes to jail losing everything he ever worked for, and you get the job. Would you feel guilty for your actions, worse then not getting the job you preferred? If so that’s why morality is more then a preference. If not you’re an antipersonnel disorder, and the mods need to report your IP to CPS, for your child’s sake. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/166 "2010-05-10T15:15:03Z")
TTR, you should spend more time trying to understand what I’m saying instead of frothing at the mouth, spinning stupid-ass hypos, and calling my a hypocrite. Your bullshit is not worthy of a response. I will respond if you flesh out your questions a little better and/or actually attempt to demonstrate why I am a hypocrite. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/167 "2010-05-10T15:22:01Z")
Actually, hypocrite would be a step up from amoral nihilist. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/168 "2010-05-10T16:49:02Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > 1. :rolleyes: > > 2. What have I refused to admit? I’ve said that I thought the actions were an OK thing to do. I just object to calling it torture. But no one asked you. Call it ballroom dancing if you like, you still support torture. That you try to pretend it isn’t torture doesn’t actually change the nature of the offensive right-wing policy in question, it just makes you a dishonest torture apologist. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/169 "2010-05-10T17:28:37Z")
Ok, got it–if I disagree with you about something, then I am being doshonest. But you disagree with me, so I suppose that makes you dishonest as well. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/170 "2010-05-10T17:31:57Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > TTR, you should spend more time trying to understand what I’m saying instead of frothing at the mouth, spinning stupid-ass hypos, and calling my a hypocrite. > > Your bullshit is not worthy of a response. I will respond if you flesh out your questions a little better and/or actually attempt to demonstrate why I am a hypocrite. Actually I found this whole discussion really rather enlightening. Previously I found you to be jaw droppingly reprehensible and wondered how anyone could possibly be such a vile human being. Now I actually think I understand where your are coming from. If I understand you correctly, you are advocating a utilitarian morality, in which, moral actions are those which best advance the “Good”. In this case the “Good” is your own personal self interest. Thus any action which promotes your self interest is good, and any action which does not promote your self interest is bad. So if you were a sadist (which I have no reason to believe you are), then your torturing someone would be moral, because it gives you pleasure. However if someone tortures you, it would by definition be immoral because it acted against your pleasure. Have I got this right? I still think you are a vile human being and feel sorry for your children, but at least I’m no longer quite so baffled by your stances. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/171 "2010-05-10T17:43:25Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Ok, got it–if I disagree with you about something, then I am being doshonest. But you disagree with me, so I suppose that makes you dishonest as well. Well, you are you, and we are we. We say you’re an amoral scumbag, so that is absolutely correct from our point of view. You can be free to think whatever you like. A philosophy that can simply be boiled down to “I am an island, and whatever I think is moral is therefore moral” and “whatever anyone else thinks is moral is irrelevant, because they are not me” Is, as **elucidator** points out, simply amoral nihilism, and is simply worthless. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/172 "2010-05-10T17:56:28Z")
I really struggle to understand why Rand’s somewhat half-assed emotivism is triggering so much rage. Plenty of great philosophers argue about the truth content of ethical propositions all the time. BFD. That doesn’t make the propositions we collectively accept any less binding. Of all of Rand Rover’s somewhat self-serving beliefs, this one is probably the least controversial. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/173 "2010-05-10T18:36:10Z")
Maeglin, why is my emotivism “half-assed,” exactly? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/174 "2010-05-10T18:41:17Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Have I got this right? Nope. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/175 "2010-05-10T18:47:36Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Actually I found this whole discussion really rather enlightening. Previously I found you to be jaw droppingly reprehensible and wondered how anyone could possibly be such a vile human being. Now I actually think I understand where your are coming from. I dunno… I figure either troll who is amused by the reaction he gets, and/or just an unexceptional self-centered jerk, of which the world has plenty. Neither is particularly jaw-dropping or unusual. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/176 "2010-05-10T19:07:13Z")
Bryan, what about option ©: neither you nor Buck has the mental horsepower to understand what I’m talking about (which is actually quite simple and non-controversial, as Maeglin has pointed out)? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/177 "2010-05-10T19:21:13Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Bryan, what about option (c): neither you nor Buck has the mental horsepower to understand what I’m talking about (which is actually quite simple and non-controversial, as Maeglin has pointed out)? Conceivable, but far less likely than either of the two options I suggested, neither of which is especially complex. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/178 "2010-05-10T19:37:55Z")
OK. Why don’t you (and Buck) go read Wikipedia’s entry on emotivism, then read my first two or three posts in this thread, then see what you think. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/179 "2010-05-10T19:41:55Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Nope. OK, so enlighten me. What did I get wrong? I am seriously interested. Just because I don’t agree with your viewpoint doesn’t mean that I am not interested in understanding it. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2010, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550/180 "2010-05-10T19:58:11Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > OK. Why don’t you (and Buck) go read Wikipedia’s entry on emotivism, then read my first two or three posts in this thread, then see what you think. Thanks. Oh, I don’t care about your feelings on general morality. Heck, I’m an atheist who long-ago abandoned the notion of an absolute moral standard. My question in post #100 was to elicit something I could throw back at you the next time you said something along the lines of liberals being immoral or something, but that seems pointless now. It’s your notion that waterboarding isn’t torture because: 1. “We” did it. 2. It was meticulously planned out. 3. A judge didn’t _say_ it was torture. … that pegs you as a troll or a jerk, or at the very least someone who has not bothered to learn how waterboarding works. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-remember-when-america-was-good/538550.md?page=10)