# I said NO SCAB PAPERS, bitch. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 2, 2006, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-said-no-scab-papers-bitch/375027 "2006-10-02T19:54:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2006, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-said-no-scab-papers-bitch/375027/21 "2006-10-03T00:15:41Z")
> [@](#): > > But nowadays, due to magic, if the unions went away, those companies would treat their workers with the dignity they’re due. Plenty of companies “nowadays” have no unions and their workers by and large are treated with dignity. I guess that’s proof positive of the existance of magic. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2006, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-said-no-scab-papers-bitch/375027/22 "2006-10-03T00:33:06Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] …this statement: > [@](#): > > But a seven-year time-out period on hiring those who’ve committed crimes such as murder, bribery, identity fraud and the illegal use of firearms was dropped in the dead of night at the behest of unions fearful that too many of their members could lose their jobs. Is a factual one… [/QUOTE] Soo, you shouldn’t have any problem finding quotes from the House-Senate conference members stating that the reason they voted against this is because their union bosses told them to? From the “cite”, “New York’s Rep. Peter King,…Republican…chairs the Homeland Security Committee, told the House that the list of proposed criminal offenses “includes vague and overly broad crimes” and supported the move “to narrow and limit the list.”” I guess he meant to say “because my union bosses told me to”. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2006, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-said-no-scab-papers-bitch/375027/23 "2006-10-03T00:39:04Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] Companies wouldn’t revert back to working employees to death because there are restrictions on working hours now, requirements to pay employees overtime after a certain amount, requirements to maintain certain levels of safety, and etc. These aren’t things that you need unions to enforce because the government is there to enforce it. In 1900, these laws didn’t exist. [/QUOTE] Yeah, but Martin, the reason these things are now in place are precisely **because** of the union organizing in the late 19th and early-to-mid 20th centuries. To believe that, should unions disappear, these protections would not begin to be rolled back is naive and shows a serious misunderstanding of the back-and-forth nature of politics. One side wins some gains and the other side begins looking for ways to win back those gains and so on and so forth. It’s a GOOD thing that these things are being fought in the legislatures and courts instead of in the field with strikers and bulls. I think we all agree with that. But to think that we got here and we’ll never go back is assuming things not in evidence. Besides, if you really want to complain about unions go ask some of them why the hell they’re not trying to repeat the organizing of the 1800s in China. Or Vietnam. Or Brazil. That’s a target market worth ‘raising less corn and more hell’! ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2006, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-said-no-scab-papers-bitch/375027/24 "2006-10-03T00:43:15Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] Most of the issues in which corporations treated their workers “abominably” are now regulated legally. There is also far greater recourse through the legal system. In 1900 my great-grandfather was a school teacher who, because that job didn’t afford him near the money requied to raise his family, worked several other odd jobs. In one he cleaned out natural gas tanks when they were empty, one day he went to work to clean out an empty tank, and someone turned on the gas, filling up the tank and killing him. The company didn’t so much as pay for the funeral. If that happened today the corporation would be in enormous amounts of legal trouble for not maintaining safe working conditions, and my great-grandmother would become a very wealthy woman. Not only are there legal protections in place, every person in the country is aware that there is legal recourse for corporate wrongs, something that was neither as widely available or as widely known in 1900. [/QUOTE] Hey dumbass, ever stop and wonder WHY these rules are now in place? Do you think the companies just up and decided to change things out of the goodness of their hearts? Hint-perhaps it was Debs and those evil unions you hate so much? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2006, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-said-no-scab-papers-bitch/375027/25 "2006-10-03T01:02:30Z")
When progress is finally achieved, radicals who provoked that progress are quietly written out of the history books. You read American history as it has been taught, and it seems for all the world that the worker’s rights were blessings handed down by the rich and powerful motivated by Christian conscience and civic virtue. We are expected to blubber with gratitude for what was always ours. The path to those legal recognitions and power, however abused, were paid for with pain, blood and tears. Grudgingly, and after bitter struggle. Men risked their lives and, more important, risked their _families_. When they struck they knew there was a good chance they would lose, and a good chance that, somewhere along that road, they would put their children to bed hungry. What is a bullet compared to that? For myself, I am a political radical, I demand change as I demand justice. Radicals have a long and proud American tradition, going back to Tom Paine, the airbrushed founding father. Radicalism is more American than apple pie, which is what you ought to expect of a nation born of revolution. Whazzat Ghandi? “First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they jail you, and then you win”? Preach it, brother. Now it may be as claimed, that unions have no purpose, no utility now that we are all so socially enlightened that greed and exploitation are banished forever. Well, that may be true, from your lips to God’s ears. But until I’m sure, would you mind if I kept my union cleaned and oiled, here in my holster? You know, just in case you’re wrong? ---
**Author:** ![yBeayf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e274bd/32.png) [@yBeayf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yBeayf)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2006, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-said-no-scab-papers-bitch/375027/26 "2006-10-03T02:24:01Z")
> [@](#): > > Instead I had to fight the poor girl’s corner on my own and cause myself some trouble in the process. When I told her she couldn’t have what she requested she walked away from the job to look after her mother. It’s her right to ask to change her hours, the company’s right to turn her down, and her right to leave her job for something that will let her work the hours she wants. Free market in action, baby. I would have no problem with unions at all if they weren’t backed up by law. Let workers organize all they want, but companies should be able to refuse to negotiate with unions, refuse to hire union members, prohibit employees from attempting to unionize, and be free to fire union organizers, members, and striking workers and to hire permanent replacements for them. Repeal pro-union legislation, most notably the Wagner Act, the Railway Labor Act, and the Norris-LaGuardia Act, and I’ll be yay unions. ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2006, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-said-no-scab-papers-bitch/375027/27 "2006-10-03T03:30:47Z")
[QUOTE=yBeayf] I would have no problem with unions at all if they weren’t backed up by law. Let workers organize all they want, but companies should be able to refuse to negotiate with unions, refuse to hire union members, prohibit employees from attempting to unionize, and be free to fire union organizers, members, and striking workers and to hire permanent replacements for them. Repeal pro-union legislation, most notably the Wagner Act, the Railway Labor Act, and the Norris-LaGuardia Act, and I’ll be yay unions. [/QUOTE] When you eliminate legal means of achieving change, guess what means are left? I’ll hang up and wait for your reply. ---
**Author:** ![tashabot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tashabot/32/6250_2.png) [@tashabot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tashabot)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2006, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-said-no-scab-papers-bitch/375027/28 "2006-10-03T04:00:23Z")
[QUOTE=yBeayf] It’s her right to ask to change her hours, the company’s right to turn her down, and her right to leave her job for something that will let her work the hours she wants. Free market in action, baby. [/QUOTE] Yes, free market. And horrible human beings. And sometimes, my friend, you DON’T have a choice. Sometimes you need that job because every other job in the area will drive you to homelessness. People are not automatons. Companies should not expect people to work the same way, every day, every time. It doesn’t work like that. Shit happens. And someone mentioned something about knowledge of workers’ rights. And I have to say it’s BS. I cannot count the times I’ve mentioned some labor law and had people go “WTF MY EMPLOYER OWES ME MONEY” because their boss would do something like make them work six or seven days in a row and justify it by when their workweek begins (incidentally, that’s Federal labor law, to any working stiffs out there - if you want a cite, give me a day or so to rifle through my files and I can show you - sixth and seventh day in a row you get time and a half, no matter what or how many hours you worked, assuming you’re non-union). Obviously, the employers are doing their job to well, or the unions aren’t doing theirs well enough. ~Tasha (Proud union stagehand) ---
**Author:** ![Marlitharn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/779978/32.png) [@Marlitharn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marlitharn)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2006, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-said-no-scab-papers-bitch/375027/29 "2006-10-03T04:26:34Z")
[QUOTE=tashabot] And someone mentioned something about knowledge of workers’ rights. And I have to say it’s BS. I cannot count the times I’ve mentioned some labor law and had people go “WTF MY EMPLOYER OWES ME MONEY” because their boss would do something like make them work six or seven days in a row and justify it by when their workweek begins (incidentally, that’s Federal labor law, to any working stiffs out there - if you want a cite, give me a day or so to rifle through my files and I can show you - sixth and seventh day in a row you get time and a half, no matter what or how many hours you worked, assuming you’re non-union). Obviously, the employers are doing their job to well, or the unions aren’t doing theirs well enough. ~Tasha (Proud union stagehand) [/QUOTE] Hey, can I get a cite on that? 'Cause until very recently our schedules here at work were 6 days on, two off. While I’m used to being screwed over by my employers, I’m going to be incredibly pissed if I find out they owe me…umm…carry the 2…well, a bunch of money. ---
**Author:** ![tashabot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tashabot/32/6250_2.png) [@tashabot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tashabot)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2006, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-said-no-scab-papers-bitch/375027/30 "2006-10-03T04:28:03Z")
[QUOTE=Marlitharn] Hey, can I get a cite on that? 'Cause until very recently our schedules here at work were 6 days on, two off. While I’m used to being screwed over by my employers, I’m going to be incredibly pissed if I find out they owe me…umm…carry the 2…well, a bunch of money. [/QUOTE] I can provide, but like I said - gimme a few days, I gotta get to my Electronic Law Library, which is currently at my parent’s house. And that law does NOT apply if you work at a union shop and are a member of a union, because collective bargaining agreements tend to have better rules anyway. I pulled this one on Target when I quit. They hated me. ~Tasha ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2006, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-said-no-scab-papers-bitch/375027/31 "2006-10-03T04:38:53Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] Most of the issues in which corporations treated their workers “abominably” are now regulated legally. [snip] Not only are there legal protections in place, every person in the country is aware that there is legal recourse for corporate wrongs, something that was neither as widely available or as widely known in 1900. [/QUOTE] I can’t imagine that the unions had anything to do with the appearance of those legal protections. No, surely those legal protections were put in place at the behest of the kind-hearted corporations. Yeah. That sounds about right! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2006, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-said-no-scab-papers-bitch/375027/32 "2006-10-03T05:15:06Z")
> **[Employees readying class-action lawsuit against EA](https://www.gamespot.com/articles/employees-readying-class-action-lawsuit-against-ea/1100-6112998/)** > > A lawyer representing the plaintiffs addresses a proposed class-action lawsuit seeking unpaid overtime from the world's biggest third-party publisher. There’s no modern companies that would overwork their workers as a rule. None at all. Want a little hint, folks? For six years, I worked as a permanent temp employee. No sick days. No vacation days. No insurance of any kind. No lunch hour… I took lunch, I took home less. I had all the rights of a dog. Except the dog got paid for overtime. I didn’t, because I wasn’t allowed to charge it. That’s the wave of the future. Wal-Mart’s doing it. They want to make more employees part-timers to save 'em money. [http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=domesticNews&storyID=2006-10-02T093507Z\_01\_N02328249\_RTRUKOC\_0\_US-RETAIL-WALMART.xml&WTmodLoc=USNewsHome\_C2\_domesticNews-6](http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=domesticNews&storyID=2006-10-02T093507Z_01_N02328249_RTRUKOC_0_US-RETAIL-WALMART.xml&WTmodLoc=USNewsHome_C2_domesticNews-6) Welcome to the third world. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2006, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-said-no-scab-papers-bitch/375027/33 "2006-10-03T06:13:44Z")
My current employers fired their whole staff a few years ago when they tried to unionize, save for maybe one guy. The plus side is that I think they’re being repaid karmically for what they did, and that it’s let all their future employees know what their priorities really are. ---
**Author:** ![bdgr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a87d85/32.png) [@bdgr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bdgr)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2006, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-said-no-scab-papers-bitch/375027/34 "2006-10-03T12:13:14Z")
[QUOTE=Patty O’Furniture] Plenty of companies “nowadays” have no unions and their workers by and large are treated with dignity. I guess that’s proof positive of the existance of magic. [/QUOTE] No, its proof that if you don’t want your workers to unionize, you should treat them like they already had a union. Do away with unions and most of the companys would wallmart the hell out of their employees. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2006, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-said-no-scab-papers-bitch/375027/35 "2006-10-04T00:25:41Z")
[QUOTE=tashabot] …I pulled this one on Target when I quit. They hated me. [/QUOTE] Groovy! Next time, fuck 'em _harder_! ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2006, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-said-no-scab-papers-bitch/375027/36 "2006-10-04T00:41:11Z")
[QUOTE=yBeayf] I would have no problem with unions at all if they weren’t backed up by law. Let workers organize all they want, but companies should be able to refuse to negotiate with unions, refuse to hire union members, prohibit employees from attempting to unionize, and be free to fire union organizers, members, and striking workers and to hire permanent replacements for them. Repeal pro-union legislation, most notably the Wagner Act, the Railway Labor Act, and the Norris-LaGuardia Act, and I’ll be yay unions. [/QUOTE] So in other words, unions are just hunky-dory with you if they have absolutely no power and thus don’t really exist? Gosh, it’s almost as if that means absolutely jack-shit! ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2006, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-said-no-scab-papers-bitch/375027/37 "2006-10-04T00:48:50Z")
A few years ago I was contracted into a big auto supplier in Detroit.Rumor was a layoff was coming. 30% of the staff was said to be leaving. The day of the layoff ,uniformed guards came in and put black paper over a small office. As the day went on someone left the office and went to someones desk. He brouhjt them back to the office. After a few minutes he was escorted by a guard to his desk. He was allowed to take personal stuff that he could carry and was led out the door. It was an excruciating thing to witness. nonunion It was the engineering people getting the axe. Masters degree,didnt matter. Two big bosses got it.One was over 200 ka year. ---
**Author:** ![yBeayf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e274bd/32.png) [@yBeayf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yBeayf)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2006, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-said-no-scab-papers-bitch/375027/38 "2006-10-04T02:48:35Z")
> [@](#): > > So in other words, unions are just hunky-dory with you if they have absolutely no power and thus don’t really exist? Gosh, it’s almost as if that means absolutely jack-shit! I think workers should be free to organize and strike all they want, and businesses should be free to fire their asses for doing so. Simple, really. Unless there’s a contract that says otherwise, an employer should be able to treat a union the same as any other random organization. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2006, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-said-no-scab-papers-bitch/375027/39 "2006-10-04T02:57:08Z")
[QUOTE=yBeayf] I think workers should be free to organize and strike all they want, and businesses should be free to fire their asses for doing so. Simple, really. Unless there’s a contract that says otherwise, an employer should be able to treat a union the same as any other random organization. [/QUOTE] That’s exactly right. The point of a union is that collectively workers have more power than they do individually. The mere existence of a union is what gives it this power. If a company does not want to deal with a union, they shouldn’t have to, but they will also face the consequences of not doing so, which can be considerable. ---
**Author:** ![oy\_vay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/258eb7/32.png) [@oy\_vay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oy_vay)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2006, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-said-no-scab-papers-bitch/375027/40 "2006-10-04T07:49:30Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] Most of the issues in which corporations treated their workers “abominably” are now regulated legally. … yadda yadda [/QUOTE] Tell all that to people of walmart making minimum wage and struggling to feed their families after walmart killed off some of the higher paying local employers. :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-said-no-scab-papers-bitch/375027.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-said-no-scab-papers-bitch/375027.md?page=3)