# I say "Islam" What's the first thing you think of? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 2, 2012, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515 "2012-02-02T06:08:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![scratch\_llll](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@scratch\_llll](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scratch_llll)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/181 "2012-02-06T06:15:59Z")
> [@Sudden\_Kestrel](#): > > Boy howdy, you sure get all bent out of shape when your assertions are challenged, don’t you? It’s almost as if a lesser member of the pack were challenging your supremacy. 😉 I’ve been patient in explaining. And lesser member? I’ve been here less than a year. I’ve hardly had time to make a place in the pack and I won’t if I keep going against pack behavior. So I won’t. I would rather speak my mind. At least I think rather than spouting assertions of no merit because I consider my belief system challenged as you do. I’m willing to listen to reason the moment you begin to speak it. > [@Sudden\_Kestrel](#): > > You might indeed be ruled by your instincts and leap into action at the first sight of a terrifying [del] Muslim [/del] snake, but you shouldn’t make the mistake of thinking that other people aren’t able to identify and adapt to circumstances more efficiently than you. People aren’t ruled by their instincts and least of all me. We think. We change the direction of that first thought and consider other aspects. That has nothing to do with a first fleeting thought. You truely are incapable of shaking your prejudice enough to listen to the reason in my arguments and cease projecting what you think I say rather than what I do aren’t you? I guess I am the fool for continuing then. Be happy for that victory then. It is your only one. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/182 "2012-02-06T06:23:19Z")
> [@lindsaybluth](#): > > First thing: stoning. > > Second thing: What I saw in the grocery store a year or so ago: an adorable little girl with bouncy curls, 5 or so, grinning and running in the grocery store wearing a Dora the Explorer tshirt, who looks _just_ like me at that age. Suddenly she’s scooped up by her mother wearing a niqab. My heart sinks, knowing what awaits the little girl. She could be a[fighter pilot](http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/hs038.snc6/166837_169174056458649_102383706471018_354639_2619665_n.jpg) or a[Cabinet Minister](http://tips4fashion.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/269.jpg) or a [police commando](http://www.miliwoman.com/albums/Pakistan/Police/military_woman_pakistan_police_000001.jpg) you \:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/183 "2012-02-06T06:47:24Z")
> [@JBDivmstr](#): > > Then what _ **do** _ you think of? > Personally, the first thing that I think of when I hear “violence” is “the Middle East”. When I hear “islam”, it’s Yusef. When I hear “muslim” it gets more complicated. I served two tours in Iraq, and many memories come to mind, mostly negative, but also some positives. The hospitality we were sometimes showed, despite being an invading force. Hanging out with an IP colonel in Ishaki, watching MBC2 english language action movies and smoking a hookah. Learning about chaldeans from an interpreter we had. Also though, rocket attacks, mortar attacks, dead friends, dead in general. When I hear “violence” though, the first thing I thought of was “a history of violence” because I like the movie. ---
**Author:** ![scratch\_llll](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@scratch\_llll](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scratch_llll)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/184 "2012-02-06T07:06:01Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > Lots of stuff you can read just up there. While I agree with a lot of what you said I think you understate the influence of the hardline religious in affecting events. It’s not what you said so much as all that is left out such as the more secular and tolerant Pakistan against the northern zealots who executed a politician (by his own bodyguard no less) for saying a foreign teacher should not be jailed for mentioning Christianity and that sort of influence on law and the military. You seem intelligent so I assume you simplified and left off mention of Afghanistans warlords who seek to impose a harsh religious rule via Taliban to make your point free of the more muddy distinctions too. Overall I agree but with a less generous view of religious extremists. Then again I don’t see much reason to be generous with US religious nuts either so that may color my view. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/185 "2012-02-06T08:27:30Z")
Islam = Labarang ([Eid ul-Fitr](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eid_ul-Fitr#South_Africa)) for me. And Fridays. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/186 "2012-02-06T09:49:42Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > She could be a[fighter pilot](http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/hs038.snc6/166837_169174056458649_102383706471018_354639_2619665_n.jpg) or a[Cabinet Minister](http://tips4fashion.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/269.jpg) or a [police commando](http://www.miliwoman.com/albums/Pakistan/Police/military_woman_pakistan_police_000001.jpg) you \:rolleyes: That may be so, but compared to more enlightened ideologies she is less likely to be fully free to live her life in her own way, to live and love in a way and with a person of her choosing. Not that it would be impossible, (and the world is full of alternate examples), but let’s not pretend that women in an Islamic culture are as free as in the secular west. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/187 "2012-02-06T13:23:38Z")
> [@chiroptera](#): > > Knee-jerk, first-response word was “war” though. Being as how there hasn’t been a conflict on this planet in the last few decades that hasn’t involved Islam one way or the other. ??? The largest conflict since World War II, with 5.5 million plus dead and endless destruction and ruined lives, is the Second Congo War. While I guess Libya did weigh in, it was almost entirely a Christian conflict. Very Christian Rwanda decided to invade very Christian DRC, with the backing of a number of other (mostly Christian) African nations. Likewise, I’m not seeing the role of Islam in Latin American instability. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/188 "2012-02-06T13:24:42Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > That may be so, but compared to more enlightened ideologies she is less likely to be fully free to live her life in her own way, to live and love in a way and with a person of her choosing. > Not that it would be impossible, (and the world is full of alternate examples), but let’s not pretend that women in an Islamic culture are as free as in the secular west. Do you also feel bad when you see Hindu kids? Very few places on this planet are as good for women as the secular west, but religion is hardly the key factor. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/189 "2012-02-06T14:43:34Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > ??? > > The largest conflict since World War II, with 5.5 million plus dead and endless destruction and ruined lives, is the Second Congo War. While I guess Libya did weigh in, it was almost entirely a Christian conflict. Very Christian Rwanda decided to invade very Christian DRC, with the backing of a number of other (mostly Christian) African nations. > > Likewise, I’m not seeing the role of Islam in Latin American instability. Silly Sven, those don’t fit into the narrative. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/190 "2012-02-06T15:11:55Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Do you also feel bad when you see Hindu kids? As I said upthread in response to a similar question > [@](#): > > I’d be concerned about the increase of any religion or ideology that seeks to limit freedoms or foster intolerance, but the thread was about Islam. And I stick to that, it doesn’t have to be a religion. I’d be against 17th century Catholic expansionism, Russian communism circa 1922 or indeed any political ideology that fits my criteria above. As for the Hindu? Outside of the [Dalit](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalit) I don’t know enough about the life chances of such children to feel one way or the other. > [@](#): > > Very few places on this planet are as good for women as the secular west, but religion is hardly the key factor. Religion may not be the root cause of the terrible conditions for those populations at large but it certainly can be a key factor in the gender inequalities within those societies. I see that as a “Bad Thing” and not something to be indulged or encouraged. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/191 "2012-02-06T15:50:22Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > Silly Sven, those don’t fit into the narrative. It fits into a wider narrative of tribalism. The (probably minimal) differences between Hutu and Tutsi were encouraged by the europeans and tragedy ensued. Religion is also a very handy way of establishing such divisions and some religions are more apt to setting their societies in that way given the chance. I think that is harmful and potentially very dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/192 "2012-02-06T17:09:16Z")
> [@scratch\_llll](#): > > It’s a bit like the elephant in the room or more precisely the kings new clothes. I understand that when you ARE muslim you think of different things but afterall the brain IS a sponge. That is it’s purpose, to absorb information. While it is true that it parses that info, it brings to fore that which it observes most often. Most here are not muslim nor from those nations and though they may have contact with or freinds of that religion they also have daily news of muslim violence and repression. While individually they may make allowances, the part of the brain most hardwired to remember is that which associates danger. > > Does that make sense or are you still disposed to anger at my honesty? I don’t feel any anger towards you - I don’t have to be angry with you to disagree with you. And I won’t disparage you for saying that terrorism is the first thing that springs to mind for you - as others have pointed out, you weren’t the only one to say that or something else negative, and nobody said anything to them. Please stop claiming that people are angry with you for thinking of terrorism - nobody’s doing that. But I won’t praise you for your ‘honesty’ because I think the other people are being honest too. If your sole or main exposure to Islam is hearing about terrorist attacks then fair enough, you think of terrorism first. But not everyone lives your life, you know. And there aren’t daily reports of Islamic terrorism. - I suppose if you searched every day you could find a report about terrorism, same as for almost any subject, but they’re not in the nightly news. Nobody said there was ‘a conspiracy to report on violence in the middle east.’ Once again, you’re making up points to argue against. ---
**Author:** ![florez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9e5f3/32.png) [@florez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/florez)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/193 "2012-02-06T18:38:47Z")
> [@lindsaybluth](#): > > First thing: stoning. > > Second thing: What I saw in the grocery store a year or so ago: an adorable little girl with bouncy curls, 5 or so, grinning and running in the grocery store wearing a Dora the Explorer tshirt, who looks _just_ like me at that age. Suddenly she’s scooped up by her mother wearing a niqab. My heart sinks, knowing what awaits the little girl. What if the woman wearing the niqab saw a little girl run into her western mothers arms, and her heart just sunk, in the superior knowledge of what horrors await the child? Believe it of not, everyone does not automatically bow down to the superiority of the west, and the woman in this post reminds me of missionaries sadly witnessing the children of a Native American mothers, and making the same superior judgement. But forgive me for bringing up Native Americans as this is about Islam. ---
**Author:** ![Teacake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Teacake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Teacake)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/194 "2012-02-06T18:50:03Z")
> [@scratch\_llll](#): > > I’ve been patient in explaining. And lesser member? I’ve been here less than a year. I’ve hardly had time to make a place in the pack and I won’t if I keep going against pack behavior. So I won’t. I would rather speak my mind. At least I think rather than spouting assertions of no merit because I consider my belief system challenged as you do. I’m willing to listen to reason the moment you begin to speak it. > > People aren’t ruled by their instincts and least of all me. We think. We change the direction of that first thought and consider other aspects. That has nothing to do with a first fleeting thought. You truely are incapable of shaking your prejudice enough to listen to the reason in my arguments and cease projecting what you think I say rather than what I do aren’t you? I guess I am the fool for continuing then. Be happy for that victory then. It is your only one. There is no “pack behaviour” going on. People are answering the question, some with positive impressions of Islam, some with negative ones. Not one person has been criticised for expressing any kind of first thought about terrorism or the oppression of women. The only criticism being expressed is you calling people liars. Why is it that you can’t accept that not everyone thinks as you do? Why should your opinion be the only possible honest one? I live around the corner from a mosque. I meet people going to and from it every day - quite a crowd on Fridays, when we often have a merry chat as I buy a spit-roasted chicken from the halal shop on the other side of the road. Many of my neighbours, friends and students are Muslim. Why on earth would it be more natural for me to think of something removed from my life than something which is of immediate interest and import to it? For the record, despite having grown up in an atmosphere of fear, under genuine and immediate (not distant and media-manufactured) threat, and actually having been caught in an IRA explosion as a child, I do not think of terrorism first when I hear “Ireland” either. Would you like to call me a liar again? Different people have different thoughts and different thought processes. We don’t all jump away from snakes; some of us are fascinated, or find them beautiful, or whatever. This is because we are not animals. Welcome to the world of intelligent thought. ---
**Author:** ![Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f08c70/32.png) [@Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shinna_Minna_Ma)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/195 "2012-02-06T19:21:09Z")
Terrorism. Green minaret lights. Security checkpoints. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/196 "2012-02-06T20:20:32Z")
I thought of my trip to Istanbul. And terorism. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/197 "2012-02-06T21:09:26Z")
My father. ---
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/198 "2012-02-06T21:18:15Z")
> [@florez](#): > > What if the woman wearing the niqab saw a little girl run into her western mothers arms, and her heart just sunk, in the superior knowledge of what horrors await the child? Believe it of not, everyone does not automatically bow down to the superiority of the west, and the woman in this post reminds me of missionaries sadly witnessing the children of a Native American mothers, and making the same superior judgement. But forgive me for bringing up Native Americans as this is about Islam. What does that niqab wearing woman get sad about? You didn’t say. ---
**Author:** ![florez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9e5f3/32.png) [@florez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/florez)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/199 "2012-02-06T22:29:49Z")
[quote=“YoDoc, post:198, topic:611515”] What does that niqab wearing woman get sad about? You didn’t say.[/QUOTE Check out the National domestic violence statistics, domestic violence and emergency room statistics, bureau of justice and FBI statistics…I am not saying that everyone abuses women in America, only that the poster may want to look into her own backyard before she decides that horror awaits the little girl with a mid eastern mom. It is an attitude that disrespects other cultures and assumes the worst about them. It is racist, and hate mongering is part of war mongering. ---
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/200 "2012-02-06T23:00:46Z")
I don’t buy that it’s racist to think that other peoples values, when very much in opposition to your own, are scary. If I didn’t think my values were better, why would I hold them? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515.md?page=11)