# I say "Islam" What's the first thing you think of? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 2, 2012, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515 "2012-02-02T06:08:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Sudden\_Kestrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecd19e/32.png) [@Sudden\_Kestrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sudden_Kestrel)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/201 "2012-02-06T23:09:18Z")
> [@scratch\_llll](#): > > I’ve been patient in explaining. And lesser member? I’ve been here less than a year. I’ve hardly had time to make a place in the pack and I won’t if I keep going against pack behavior. So I won’t. I would rather speak my mind. At least I think rather than spouting assertions of no merit because I consider my belief system challenged as you do. I’m willing to listen to reason the moment you begin to speak it. Do you recall how this started? You made a statement, I asked you a simple and logical question about that statement, and you responded with insults and what I considered to be amusingly semicoherent ranting about “instincts” and pack behavior. If that is what you refer to as speaking your mind, and if you truly consider reason to be only what fits your personal experience, you and I are unlikely to be members of the same pack. (And yes, you sneer in my general direction, my “naivete” is beneath your notice, I am only an egg, yadda yadda yadda.) > [@SciFiSam](#): > > I don’t feel any anger towards you - I don’t have to be angry with you to disagree with you. And I won’t disparage you for saying that terrorism is the first thing that springs to mind for you - as others have pointed out, you weren’t the only one to say that or something else negative, and nobody said anything to them. Please stop claiming that people are angry with you for thinking of terrorism - nobody’s doing that. > > But I won’t praise you for your ‘honesty’ because I think the other people are being honest too. If your sole or main exposure to Islam is hearing about terrorist attacks then fair enough, you think of terrorism first. But not everyone lives your life, you know. > > And there aren’t daily reports of Islamic terrorism. - I suppose if you searched every day you could find a report about terrorism, same as for almost any subject, but they’re not in the nightly news. > > Nobody said there was ‘a conspiracy to report on violence in the middle east.’ Once again, you’re making up points to argue against. **SciFiSam** expressed my own thoughts so perfectly that I think you ( **scratch llll** ) and I _both_ need to read it twice. He (?) is much more patient than I am about making these points. ---
**Author:** ![florez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9e5f3/32.png) [@florez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/florez)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2012, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/202 "2012-02-06T23:52:35Z")
> [@YoDoc](#): > > I don’t buy that it’s racist to think that other peoples values, when very much in opposition to your own, are scary. If I didn’t think my values were better, why would I hold them? What is scary is when people who believe they have found values that are very much in opposition to their own–allow the conviction of these “superior” values to justify invasions, genocide, wars, apartheid… ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/203 "2012-02-07T00:22:39Z")
> [@florez](#): > > > [@YoDoc](#): > > > > What does that niqab wearing woman get sad about? You didn’t say. > > Check out the National domestic violence statistics, domestic violence and emergency room statistics, bureau of justice and FBI statistics…I am not saying that everyone abuses women in America, only that the poster may want to look into her own backyard before she decides that horror awaits the little girl with a mid eastern mom. It is an attitude that disrespects other cultures and assumes the worst about them. It is racist, and hate mongering is part of war mongering. What is assumed is that making someone wear a cloth over their head and body because of what gender they are is sexist at the bare minimum. We see the hate mongering this mindset produces when little girls burn to death in a fire because they couldn’t cover their faces in time. Beyond the religious police who enforce such draconian behavior there are the honor killings when women don’t submit to the standards set by the males of their family. So before you launch on the subject of domestic abuse consider that women in the West have far more options available to them regarding their ability to get away from their abusers. ---
**Author:** ![SDMBKL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sdmbkl/32/7297_2.png) [@SDMBKL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SDMBKL)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/204 "2012-02-07T00:34:02Z")
> [@Namkcalb](#): > > Inspired by [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=639553)thread on Germany > > What’s the very first thing that springs to mind when you think of Islam? Or has you-know-what coloured your first impressions of it? When one says “Islam”, the first thing that pops into my mind is something totally unrelated: salamis and ham. I don’t know, but I always think of food upon hearing this term. It takes a while to get this out of my brain, and starting thinking about the religion and its followers. ---
**Author:** ![florez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9e5f3/32.png) [@florez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/florez)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/205 "2012-02-07T02:23:57Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > What is assumed is that making someone wear a cloth over their head and body because of what gender they are is sexist at the bare minimum. We see the hate mongering this mindset produces when little girls burn to death in a fire because they couldn’t cover their faces in time. Beyond the religious police who enforce such draconian behavior there are the honor killings when women don’t submit to the standards set by the males of their family. > > So before you launch on the subject of domestic abuse consider that women in the West have far more options available to them regarding their ability to get away from their abusers. So as a representative of the “superior” culture (no matter the problems in your own country), do you feel the need to correct the wrongs in other peoples countries first? And is it OK to use horrific examples to justify this opinion–as if it applies to all THOSE people, and as if there were no horrific examples in your own “superior” culture ? ---
**Author:** ![scratch\_llll](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc348/32.png) [@scratch\_llll](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scratch_llll)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/206 "2012-02-07T02:48:34Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > I don’t feel any anger towards you - I don’t have to be angry with you to disagree with you. And I won’t disparage you for saying that terrorism is the first thing that springs to mind for you - as others have pointed out, you weren’t the only one to say that or something else negative, and nobody said anything to them. Please stop claiming that people are angry with you for thinking of terrorism - nobody’s doing that. I was puzzled by this at first until I realized it was from the top of the other page. I was still responding to florezes “spongehead” comment and several posts got in the way because I was also doing laundry. Spongehead seemed to be in anger. Hell it was in anger. You don’t call somebody a name like a schoolboy with a cool head. And yeah, Kestrel got angry too. I don’t care that you disagree as long as it isn’t a pointless insult and is reasonable. You seem reasonable. > [@SciFiSam](#): > > But I won’t praise you for your ‘honesty’ because I think the other people are being honest too. If your sole or main exposure to Islam is hearing about terrorist attacks then fair enough, you think of terrorism first. But not everyone lives your life, you know. Who asked for your praise? Knowledge is rarely dispensed in praise. I don’t need stroking from some random internet guy. Once again I first stated that my first thought was to wonder how many would lie. Statisticly given this is an english language forum and most do not live around the corner from a mosque (one in my town but not around the corner) there would seem to be more mentions of terrorism. I happen to think a lot of people (particularly here given previous observations) would self edit to make themselves seem more enlightened according to prevailing thought. You and others seem to take that as insult. I take it as human nature. Perhaps prevarication would have sounded less abrasive. We all prevaricate to ourselves more than we admit, you know. > [@SciFiSam](#): > > And there aren’t daily reports of Islamic terrorism. - I suppose if you searched every day you could find a report about terrorism, same as for almost any subject, but they’re not in the nightly news.. Very nearly. I don’t search either. I don’t listen to right wing radio. I listen to NPR which actually is fair and balanced. Maybe a tad left in choice of topics. On it today was a statement by an Iranian leader that it was the religious duty of all muslims to wage jihad. I also read papers and catch the evening news when I can so perhaps I get more of a dose than most, I’ll give you that. > [@SciFiSam](#): > > Nobody said there was ‘a conspiracy to report on violence in the middle east.’ Once again, you’re making up points to argue against. It seemed to be the implication of this- > [@](#): > > I don’t think anyone doubts that a wide swath of Americans (and other countries) make the immediate Islam-terrorism link. Again, plenty of people earn their living (some earning massive livings) reinforcing and promoting that connection. Ascribing the statements and actions of a fraction of a fraction of people to the whole makes sense in some people’s mind. but perhaps I jumped the gun. What do you make of “massive livings reinforcing and promoting that connection” ? Reporters don’t report on the mundane but I don’t think they have nearly the destructive ill will this implies either. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/207 "2012-02-07T03:48:26Z")
> [@florez](#): > > So as a representative of the “superior” culture (no matter the problems in your own country), do you feel the need to correct the wrongs in other peoples countries first? And is it OK to use horrific examples to justify this opinion–as if it applies to all THOSE people, and as if there were no horrific examples in your own “superior” culture ? It’s not a function of superior or inferior cultures. It’s the reality that the religion is practiced much as was in the 8th century. There hasn’t been a defining moment that moved it forward. This has greatly affected the political structure of countries dominated by the religion. to answer your question, yes, we will defend ourselves and our interests and when attacked. Islam is not just a religion, it’s a political force complete with Imam’s who have their own armies. The distinction between religion and politics is blurred to the point that to wage war against a nation dominated by the religion it is looked upon as a war with Islam. You yourself are comparing the political system of the West with a religion. Does the West have a perfect track record in the region. Hell no. We’ve intervened in Bosnia, Kosovo, Kuwait, Iraq, Libya etc … for different reasons. They were certainly not for the impose Western culture on any of them. In fact, Bosnia, Kosovo, and Libya would be in defense of the local populace. Kuwait was in defense against Iraq (and oil supplies) which in tern dragged us into a unending babysitting job with various no-fly zones to prevent Saddam from mass killings of his own people. Because of this presence in the region we were attacked. Now if you want to talk about whether we should or shouldn’t intervene in countries like Kosovo and Libya that’s fine. The entire region is burning itself to the ground and I’m just fine with that. It’s time they stood on their own feet and freedom has never been free. Maybe that will be the catalyst to move the whole region away from the tribal mentality and a little closer to a social structure that is more independent from the current religious ties. ---
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/208 "2012-02-07T06:01:56Z")
> [@florez](#): > > What is scary is when people who believe they have found values that are very much in opposition to their own–allow the conviction of these “superior” values to justify invasions, genocide, wars, apartheid… That is scary, yes. ---
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/209 "2012-02-07T06:08:21Z")
> [@florez](#): > > So as a representative of the “superior” culture (no matter the problems in your own country), do you feel the need to correct the wrongs in other peoples countries first? And is it OK to use horrific examples to justify this opinion–as if it applies to all THOSE people, and as if there were no horrific examples in your own “superior” culture ? As if the speck of dust in my eye prevents me from seeing the beam in my brother’s? West- women raped and murdered every day. Beaten, abused. Shelters exist, counseling, help. Perhaps most importantly, it’s illegal, and every western organization that I can think of is in opposition to the abuse, whether here or abroad. Compare to many islamic countries, where it’s not only legal, but expected. Where a woman can get raped, then go to jail for having extra-marital sex. Those are not equivalent, and one is nearly objectively better. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/210 "2012-02-07T06:15:53Z")
> [@YoDoc](#): > > Compare to many islamic countries, where it’s not only legal, but expected. Where a woman can get raped, then go to jail for having extra-marital sex. Yes, there are some backward Muslim countries where women are treated so badly. There are also plenty of backward Christian counties and communities where that is true. We don’t make judgements about Christianity based on how Nigerian Christians behave? Why do so of Islam based on how Muslims in Afghanistan behave? ---
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/211 "2012-02-07T06:36:06Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Yes, there are some backward Muslim countries where women are treated so badly. > > There are also plenty of backward Christian counties and communities where that is true. > > We don’t make judgements about Christianity based on how Nigerian Christians behave? Why do so of Islam based on how Muslims in Afghanistan behave? Because the christians in Nigeria aren’t on the news, or killing folks in canada over honor. I’m not saying the connection is healthy or universal, but it’s there for most westerners. My chem lab partner is a young woman who fled iraq for these reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/212 "2012-02-07T07:43:03Z")
> [@YoDoc](#): > > Because the christians in Nigeria aren’t on the news Translation: the press pays far more attention to atrocities committed by radical Muslims than radical Christians. Yes, we’re in agreement. > [@](#): > > or killing folks in canada over honor. I’m not saying the connection is healthy or universal, but it’s there for most westernors. Yes, once again you’re correct. With few exceptions most westernors are embarrassingly ignorant of the Middle East. Honor Killings have long predates Islam and have far more to do with tribalism than Islam. For example honor killings are vastly more common amongst the Khurds(of Iraq, Syria, and Turkey) than amongst the Iranians even though radical Islam has had vastly more success amongst Iranians than amongst the Khurds. Similarly, honor killings are also unfortunately common amongst the Yazdhis, who are not Muslims, among some Christian Arab communities, and amongst Israel’s Bedouins, who while Muslim are hardly radicals. ---
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/213 "2012-02-07T13:51:03Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Translation: the press pays far more attention to atrocities committed by radical Muslims than radical Christians. > > Yes, we’re in agreement. > > Yes, once again you’re correct. With few exceptions most westernors are embarrassingly ignorant of the Middle East. Honor Killings have long predates Islam and have far more to do with tribalism than Islam. For example honor killings are vastly more common amongst the Khurds(of Iraq, Syria, and Turkey) than amongst the Iranians even though radical Islam has had vastly more success amongst Iranians than amongst the Khurds. > > Similarly, honor killings are also unfortunately common amongst the Yazdhis, who are not Muslims, among some Christian Arab communities, and amongst Israel’s Bedouins, who while Muslim are hardly radicals. Every word is true. This thread is about associations, though, not truth. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2012, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/214 "2012-02-07T21:29:10Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Yes, there are some backward Muslim countries where women are treated so badly. > > There are also plenty of backward Christian counties and communities where that is true. > > We don’t make judgements about Christianity based on how Nigerian Christians behave? Why do so of Islam based on how Muslims in Afghanistan behave? For a couple of reasons, most notably the terrorism that comes out of the region. While there are 1.6 billion Muslims the hard truth is that 1.2 billion of them live in countries that are at least 90% Muslim. This is where terrorists are groomed from an early age to hate Western nations and then taught the skills to carry out the random violence that permeates the news. The other reason is that no matter how backward Nigerian Christians are they don’t go ape-shit when someone spits on Jesus 6000 miles away. You would be hard pressed to find an icon that is more abused in Western Culture than Jesus. And by all means, feel free to make fun of them. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/215 "2012-02-08T00:21:45Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > We don’t make judgements about Christianity based on how Nigerian Christians behave? I do, if that helps. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/216 "2012-02-08T00:31:26Z")
> [@YoDoc](#): > > As if the speck of dust in my eye prevents me from seeing the beam in my brother’s? West- women raped and murdered every day. Beaten, abused. Shelters exist, counseling, help. Perhaps most importantly, it’s illegal, and every western organization that I can think of is in opposition to the abuse, whether here or abroad. > > Compare to many islamic countries, where it’s not only legal, but expected. Where a woman can get raped, then go to jail for having extra-marital sex. > > Those are not equivalent, and one is nearly objectively better. What the heck do you think goes on in Muslim countries? I promise you, if you rape someone in Indonesia, you are going to jail. Murdering women is not an everyday thing in Qatar. Many Muslim countries are not great places for women (as are most poor Christian, Hindu and other countries- and even some pretty rich countries like Japan), but it’s not freaking Gor. They do have laws. ---
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/217 "2012-02-08T00:55:50Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > What the heck do you think goes on in Muslim countries? I promise you, if you rape someone in Indonesia, you are going to jail. Murdering women is not an everyday thing in Qatar. Many Muslim countries are not great places for women (as are most poor Christian, Hindu and other countries- and even some pretty rich countries like Japan), but it’s not freaking Gor. They do have laws. Well, you know, you can pick good examples, sure. Just as I could pick bad ones. The life of women, from any sensible viewpoint, is worse when in a country which enforces islamic law. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/218 "2012-02-08T01:09:19Z")
> [@YoDoc](#): > > Well, you know, you can pick good examples, sure. Just as I could pick bad ones. The life of women, from any sensible viewpoint, is worse when in a country which enforces islamic law. For starters, the vast majority of Muslim countries don’t “enforce Islamic law”(Also, it should be noted that there’s different interpretations as to what constitutes Islamic law). Second, it’s hardly clear that women in countries which enforce Islamic law are worse than those that don’t. For example, Iran is probably one of the harshest examples when it comes to the treatment of women in the Islamic world and a very good case could be made that women are treated better in Iran than either China or India. ---
**Author:** ![carnut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnut/32/3531_2.png) [@carnut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnut)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/219 "2012-02-08T01:41:31Z")
Religion. Growing Religion. ---
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/220 "2012-02-08T02:16:12Z")
> [@YoDoc](#): > > Every word is true. This thread is about associations, though, not truth. I’m quoting myself, because it applies to the comment below as well as the original quoted post. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > For starters, the vast majority of Muslim countries don’t “enforce Islamic law”(Also, it should be noted that there’s different interpretations as to what constitutes Islamic law). > > Second, it’s hardly clear that women in countries which enforce Islamic law are worse than those that don’t. > > For example, Iran is probably one of the harshest examples when it comes to the treatment of women in the Islamic world and a very good case could be made that women are treated better in Iran than either China or India. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515.md?page=12)