# I say "Islam" What's the first thing you think of? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 2, 2012, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515 "2012-02-02T06:08:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/221 "2012-02-08T03:03:42Z")
> [@YoDoc](#): > > I’m quoting myself, because it applies to the comment below as well as the original quoted post. > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Ibn Warraq > For starters, the vast majority of Muslim countries don’t “enforce Islamic law”(Also, it should be noted that there’s different interpretations as to what constitutes Islamic law). > > Second, it’s hardly clear that women in countries which enforce Islamic law are worse than those that don’t. > > For example, Iran is probably one of the harshest examples when it comes to the treatment of women in the Islamic world and a very good case could be made that women are treated better in Iran than either China or India. > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by YoDoc > Every word is true. This thread is about associations, though, not truth. I’m sorry, but the above statement is a cop-out. You proclaimed: > [@](#): > > Well, you know, you can pick good examples, sure. Just as I could pick bad ones. The life of women, from any sensible viewpoint, is worse when in a country which enforces islamic law. You’re not talking about “associations” or perceptions in that statement, you’re specifically claiming that women have it “worse when in a country which enforces Islamic law.” When proven wrong you’re trying to use the “this thread is about associations not truth” line to hide behind rather than simply admit you were wrong. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/222 "2012-02-08T04:34:49Z")
> [@YoDoc](#): > > Well, you know, you can pick good examples, sure. Just as I could pick bad ones. The life of women, from any sensible viewpoint, is worse when in a country which enforces islamic law. How do you figure? Would you care to compare and contrast economically similar countries and their gender development? I know I’d much rather be a poor Muslim girl from a remote village in Burkina Faso than a poor Hindu girl in a remote village in India. Treatment of women seems to be much more strongly associated with geography and economics than religion. Indeed, in many parts of the world, Islam is still an improvement over the traditional way of doing things. Islam does given women some rights in marriage and society, which is a huge step up from treating women as chattel slavery- which was the global norm for a lot of human history. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/223 "2012-02-08T09:15:40Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I know I’d much rather be a poor Muslim girl from a remote village in Burkina Faso than a poor Hindu girl in a remote village in India. Treatment of women seems to be much more strongly associated with geography and economics than religion. Indeed, in many parts of the world, Islam is still an improvement over the traditional way of doing things. Islam does given women some rights in marriage and society, which is a huge step up from treating women as chattel slavery- which was the global norm for a lot of human history. Nothing wrong in saying that both options are sub-optimum though. Islam gives some rights you say? well hurrah for that. The fastest growing religion, one with a definite political identity and expansionist policy gives women \*some \*rights? You’ll forgive those of us living in the 21st century for our lack of applause. “Those blacks were being treated worse than cattle, our own code of slavery ensures that they have at least 1 square meter each on the ships and can be beaten no more than twice per week”…A. N. Enlightened slave owner circa 1800 It may be better than the worst imaginable circumstances but that is no reason to defend it. When it fully embraces the equality of all humans, I’ll cut it some slack. ---
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/224 "2012-02-08T12:30:41Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I’m sorry, but the above statement is a cop-out. > > You proclaimed: > > You’re not talking about “associations” or perceptions in that statement, you’re specifically claiming that women have it “worse when in a country which enforces Islamic law.” > > When proven wrong you’re trying to use the “this thread is about associations not truth” line to hide behind rather than simply admit you were wrong. The WHOLE DISCUSSION is about peoples perceptions! > [@even\_sven](#): > > How do you figure? Would you care to compare and contrast economically similar countries and their gender development? > > I know I’d much rather be a poor Muslim girl from a remote village in Burkina Faso than a poor Hindu girl in a remote village in India. Treatment of women seems to be much more strongly associated with geography and economics than religion. Indeed, in many parts of the world, Islam is still an improvement over the traditional way of doing things. Islam does given women some rights in marriage and society, which is a huge step up from treating women as chattel slavery- which was the global norm for a lot of human history. And we’ve moved on into the modern era. We need these religions to come along, too. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Nothing wrong in saying that both options are sub-optimum though. > > Islam gives some rights you say? well hurrah for that. The fastest growing religion, one with a definite political identity and expansionist policy gives women \*some \*rights? > You’ll forgive those of us living in the 21st century for our lack of applause. > > “Those blacks were being treated worse than cattle, our own code of slavery ensures that they have at least 1 square meter each on the ships and can be beaten no more than twice per week”…A. N. Enlightened slave owner circa 1800 > > It may be better than the worst imaginable circumstances but that is no reason to defend it. When it fully embraces the equality of all humans, I’ll cut it some slack. This. Again, a PERCEPTION based on the experience of a typical westerner who cares about gender equality, a common cause. ---
**Author:** ![JBDivmstr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b4bc9f/32.png) [@JBDivmstr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JBDivmstr)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2012, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/225 "2012-02-08T19:53:56Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Translation: _ **the press pays far more attention to atrocities committed by radical Muslims than radical Christians.** _ > > Yes, we’re in agreement. > > Yes, once again you’re correct. With few exceptions most westernors are embarrassingly ignorant of the Middle East. Honor Killings have long predates Islam and have far more to do with tribalism than Islam. For example honor killings are vastly more common amongst the Khurds(of Iraq, Syria, and Turkey) than amongst the Iranians even though radical Islam has had vastly more success amongst Iranians than amongst the Khurds. > > Similarly, honor killings are also unfortunately common amongst the Yazdhis, who are not Muslims, among some Christian Arab communities, and amongst Israel’s Bedouins, who while Muslim are hardly radicals. (bolding mine) IMHO, the media pays more attention to atrocities committed by radical Muslims because of the simple fact that there are far more radical Muslims committing atrocities than radical Christians. (Not that I’m defending _ **them** _, just for the record.) > [@Magiver](#): > > For a couple of reasons, most notably the terrorism that comes out of the region. While there are 1.6 billion Muslims the hard truth is that 1.2 billion of them live in countries that are at least 90% Muslim. This is where terrorists are groomed from an early age to hate Western nations and then taught the skills to carry out the random violence that permeates the news. > > _ **The other reason is that no matter how backward Nigerian Christians are they don’t go ape-shit when someone spits on Jesus 6000 miles away. You would be hard pressed to find an icon that is more abused in Western Culture than Jesus. And by all means, feel free to make fun of them** _. (bolding mine) _ **+1!** _ > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > For starters, the vast majority of Muslim countries don’t “enforce Islamic law”(Also, it should be noted that there’s different interpretations as to what constitutes Islamic law). > > Second, _ **it’s hardly clear that women in countries which enforce Islamic law are worse than those that don’t** _. > > For example, Iran is probably one of the harshest examples when it comes to the treatment of women in the Islamic world and a very good case could be made that women are treated better in Iran than either China or India. (bolding mine) It may not be clear to you, but it looks pretty damn crystal clear to me, from _ **my perspective** _. (And JFTR, I’m a man.) Cite please, for the statement, “women are treated better in Iran than either China or India”? :dubious: And since you’re providing ‘examples’, I’m curious as to why Saudia Arabia was not trotted out as an example of a predominately Muslim country, where women are treated better. ---
**Author:** ![truthSeeker2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7cd45c/32.png) [@truthSeeker2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthSeeker2)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2012, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/226 "2012-07-07T06:37:54Z")
Quite a few things actually: Lashkar-e-toiba, Al Qaeda, Taliban, Boko Haram, Hamas, Repression of women, Homosexuals, Sharia, intolerance, hypocrisy, forced conversions, Ghettos which are risky for kafirs to go to, Religious Madrassas, idiotic and cruel killing of animals for sacrifice to God or for food. In short - A Cancer for civilized world. I am an Indian BTW. ---
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/227 "2012-07-08T03:31:21Z")
The _very_ first thing I think of is the Taj Mahal, almost always. ---
**Author:** ![truthSeeker2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7cd45c/32.png) [@truthSeeker2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthSeeker2)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/228 "2012-07-08T05:40:18Z")
> [@ekedolphin](#): > > The _very_ first thing I think of is the Taj Mahal, almost always. The Muslim emperor had craftsman’s hands cut off , so he would never be able to duplicate the structure. ---
**Author:** ![the\_apples\_fell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@the\_apples\_fell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_apples_fell)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/229 "2012-07-08T06:34:06Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Ignorance, intolerance and oppression, especially of women. This. But then I also think of the astounding Islamic architecture, and it’s hard for me to reconcile that the same religion that creates so many beautiful buildings like the Alhambra can be so oppressive. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/230 "2012-07-08T06:54:28Z")
> [@truthSeeker2](#): > > The Muslim emperor had craftsman’s hands cut off , so he would never be able to duplicate the structure. That’s just a myth. > [@the\_apples\_fell](#): > > This. But then I also think of the astounding Islamic architecture, and it’s hard for me to reconcile that the same religion that creates so many beautiful buildings like the Alhambra can be so oppressive. You mean just like all those really pretty Christian cathedrals from the equally oppressive Christian religion? For that matter, the Nazis were quite good at spectacle, and they certainly qualify as “oppressive”. The ability to make cool looking things doesn’t have much to do with how nice you are. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/231 "2012-07-08T07:10:12Z")
> [@truthSeeker2](#): > > The Muslim emperor had craftsman’s hands cut off , so he would never be able to duplicate the structure. Romantic myth. There is zero contemporary evidence pointing to any such event. Wouldn’t have made much sense, anyway. Not only were thousands of craftsmen involved in the construction, but Shah Jahan was always building something, some of which like the Jama Masjid in Delhi, post-date the Taj Mahal. Hardly make sense for him to dispose of craftsmen he’d need for further projects. Indeed we know the names of some of the chief designers and there is no record of any them ending up with their eyes gouged out or hands cut off. ---
**Author:** ![truthSeeker2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7cd45c/32.png) [@truthSeeker2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthSeeker2)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/232 "2012-07-08T09:09:58Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > That’s just a myth. > [@Tamerlane](#): > > Romantic myth. There is zero contemporary evidence pointing to any such event. Wouldn’t have made much sense, anyway. Not only were thousands of craftsmen involved in the construction, but Shah Jahan was always building something, some of which like the Jama Masjid in Delhi, post-date the Taj Mahal. Hardly make sense for him to dispose of craftsmen he’d need for further projects. Indeed we know the names of some of the chief designers and there is no record of any them ending up with their eyes gouged out or hands cut off. 1. Thats mentioned in Indian history textbooks which glorify Islamic rulers so as to not ‘offend’ sentiments of Indian muslims. So, when Indian text book mentions a bad deed of an Islamic Ruler, it has to have good level of credibility. 2. Various forms of persecution including mutilation were common under Mughal rule, so it wouldn’t have been that big a deal. ---
**Author:** ![svrider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb8c5e/32.png) [@svrider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/svrider)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/233 "2012-07-08T09:52:07Z")
Gangs of young criminal and violent immigrants. ---
**Author:** ![alexandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e68b1a/32.png) [@alexandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alexandra)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/234 "2012-07-08T10:11:14Z")
A woman in a hijab. Not niqab. Wearing black. ---
**Author:** ![scareyfaerie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scareyfaerie/32/3135_2.png) [@scareyfaerie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scareyfaerie)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/235 "2012-07-08T11:29:42Z")
Maddy jihadis. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/236 "2012-07-08T12:00:30Z")
Neckbeards, and hats made out of doilies. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/237 "2012-07-08T16:22:52Z")
> [@truthSeeker2](#): > > 1. Thats mentioned in Indian history textbooks which glorify Islamic rulers so as to not ‘offend’ sentiments of Indian muslims. So, when Indian text book mentions a bad deed of an Islamic Ruler, it has to have good level of credibility. Not really, I’m afraid. Religious nationalism of various stripes has unfortunately been an issue [in India](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3754875.stm). The period of BJP rule in 1998-2004 in certain areas seems to have been particularly guilty of this. This is hardly unique to India, either. The rise to dominance of nationalistic ideologies in the 19th century led to all sorts of biased claptrap all over the world ( ETA: well, I guess I should add that biased claptrap has been the stock in trade of historians for millenia, but we’re talking recently ). Just anecdotally in seems to me that many Eastern European countries have been particularly prone to overtly nationalistic-tinged textbooks that tended to distort history on the margins. Such histories needn’t even be blatant lies, more often they tend to be guilty of uncritical acceptance of propagandistic or hagiographic contemporary sources. So for example when Herodotus claims there were 2.6 million soldiers in Xerxes I’s invasion army, one should be wary of taking that at face value ;). At any rate, no, I wouldn’t trust that anecdote even if it got printed in an Indian textbook. As I noted there really doesn’t seem to be any evidence of such an event and frankly it is illogical. Not because the Mughals were sweethearts, because they certainly weren’t. But rather because as I noted savaging thousands ( or even dozens ) of craftsmen when you have numerous other projects for them doesn’t make much sense. ---
**Author:** ![truthSeeker2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7cd45c/32.png) [@truthSeeker2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/truthSeeker2)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/238 "2012-07-08T18:54:34Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Not really, I’m afraid. Religious nationalism of various stripes has unfortunately been an issue [in India](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3754875.stm). The period of BJP rule in 1998-2004 in certain areas seems to have been particularly guilty of this. > > This is hardly unique to India, either. The rise to dominance of nationalistic ideologies in the 19th century led to all sorts of biased claptrap all over the world ( ETA: well, I guess I should add that biased claptrap has been the stock in trade of historians for millenia, but we’re talking recently ). Just anecdotally in seems to me that many Eastern European countries have been particularly prone to overtly nationalistic-tinged textbooks that tended to distort history on the margins. Such histories needn’t even be blatant lies, more often they tend to be guilty of uncritical acceptance of propagandistic or hagiographic contemporary sources. So for example when Herodotus claims there were 2.6 million soldiers in Xerxes I’s invasion army, one should be wary of taking that at face value ;). > > At any rate, no, I wouldn’t trust that anecdote even if it got printed in an Indian textbook. As I noted there really doesn’t seem to be any evidence of such an event and frankly it is illogical. Not because the Mughals were sweethearts, because they certainly weren’t. But rather because as I noted savaging thousands ( or even dozens ) of craftsmen when you have numerous other projects for them doesn’t make much sense. You probably do not have much idea about India. Indian potilics has always been about psuedo-secularism, muslim appeasement because of them being a substential (14-15%) portion of our population. Tens of thousands of kilometers of borders with islamic neigbhors especially pakistan which will seek any opportunity to fuel religious divide in India. In a secular country of India, the ruling party recently announced reservations\quotas for Muslims for political gains, which was quashed by courts. If servers of straightdope were in India, I would have feared of being jailed for writing anti-Islamic stuff for the possibility of my location getting revealed. Marriage laws are different in our nation for Muslims and for everyone else. A Muslim man, at any point, can have as many wives as he wants and be divorced just by saying ‘divorce’ 3 times. Its all about Muslim appeasement here in India. According to Indian textbooks, the hands of chief architect were cut off not of every worker. ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/239 "2012-07-08T19:00:04Z")
The very first thing I think of is a picture of the Kaaba, surrounded by rings of pilgrims circling around it, absolutely filling the courtyard. ---
**Author:** ![listedmia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@listedmia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/listedmia)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2012, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515/240 "2012-07-08T19:18:51Z")
A Palestinian girl I went to high school with, and her birthday party, which was all girls and featured the most boring game of truth-or-dare I have ever seen. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-say-islam-whats-the-first-thing-you-think-of/611515.md?page=13)