# I seem to be one of the few people who does not believe that COVID victims were murdered **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 3, 2020, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-seem-to-be-one-of-the-few-people-who-does-not-believe-that-covid-victims-were-murdered/917193 "2020-08-03T21:43:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2020, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-seem-to-be-one-of-the-few-people-who-does-not-believe-that-covid-victims-were-murdered/917193/21 "2020-08-04T02:37:21Z")
I haven’t heard any significant number of claims that the Administration has murdered COVID victims, but I could perhaps see an argument for negligent homicide: “ **Negligent homicide** is the killing of another person through gross **negligence** or without malice.” ETA: sorry, I see **Exapno** has already made this point. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2020, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-seem-to-be-one-of-the-few-people-who-does-not-believe-that-covid-victims-were-murdered/917193/22 "2020-08-04T05:35:06Z")
That would quite possible be negligent homicide, a form of murder, yes. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2020, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-seem-to-be-one-of-the-few-people-who-does-not-believe-that-covid-victims-were-murdered/917193/23 "2020-08-04T05:37:00Z")
> **[Missouri man charged with licking items at Walmart to mock coronavirus fears](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/missouri-man-arrested-licking-items-walmart-mock-coronavirus-fears-n1168901)** > > Authorities say Cody Lee Pfister, 26, posted a video on social media of himself licking deodorants at a Walmart in Warrenton. He was charged with making a terrorist threat. _# Missouri man charged with licking items at Walmart to mock coronavirus fears_ _Authorities say Cody Lee Pfister, 26, posted a video on social media of himself licking deodorants at a Walmart in Warrenton. He was charged with making a terrorist threat._ ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2020, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-seem-to-be-one-of-the-few-people-who-does-not-believe-that-covid-victims-were-murdered/917193/24 "2020-08-04T07:06:26Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You actually seem to be debating yourself at this point. Took me a second to realize that the “you” in that sentence meant the OP. I was like “what did I do?” ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2020, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-seem-to-be-one-of-the-few-people-who-does-not-believe-that-covid-victims-were-murdered/917193/25 "2020-08-04T13:12:39Z")
Taking your subject seriously, OP, what was your purpose with this post? To get affirmation that COVID victims were not “murdered” in the legal sense of the word? To have explained to you that using the term to emphasize the consequences of the sheer incompetence of US pandemic preparedness doesn’t necessarily mean people who use the term in the legal sense? To argue some version of your whole first post that was logically consistent instead of swinging from “I seem to one of the few” to “some people seem to think so”? ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b77776/32.png) [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_was_in_Saudi)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2020, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-seem-to-be-one-of-the-few-people-who-does-not-believe-that-covid-victims-were-murdered/917193/26 "2020-08-04T13:20:17Z")
I run into people who are poo-pooing all this. I wonder if this is sort of like shutting out facts that are too scary. Or maybe they are just idiots. Both are possible. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2020, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-seem-to-be-one-of-the-few-people-who-does-not-believe-that-covid-victims-were-murdered/917193/27 "2020-08-04T19:53:44Z")
Do those who call it murder also call Herman Cain’s death suicide? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2020, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-seem-to-be-one-of-the-few-people-who-does-not-believe-that-covid-victims-were-murdered/917193/28 "2020-08-04T20:02:09Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > Maybe this belongs in Great Debates, or even the Pit, IDK, but while a COVID death is unfortunate in any case and a tragedy in some, unless those people crossed paths with a medical serial killer, I don’t think they were murdered. Some people seem to think so. > > Fire away. Well, murdered is a bit strong, but I think there were several key inflection points where things could have been a lot better. I do, in fact, blame the CCP for a lot of what happened, especially their early cover up and ass covering, since that affected the early stance of other countries, especially wrt allowing Chinese citizens from infected areas (such as Wuhan itself) to continue to fly from China to their countries, even when the CCP started to block them from traveling within China. I also blame the CCP for their cover up and the covert way they grabbed up a lot of the PPE on the sly, while telling the world (with the WHO’s assistance) that everything we cool, no need to panic and no need to stop travel from China…and no need to buy up PPE. In fact, we have things so under control, why don’t you donate (actually donate) your PPE stocks to us to ensure it doesn’t get out? Butter couldn’t melt in our mouths! But I don’t think the CCP were murderers. That would entail them deliberately releasing this thing, or perhaps manufacturing it, which I don’t think is what happened. And, of course, we have our own flawed leadership to thank for, once this thing got out, not doing what was needed to mitigate it. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2020, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-seem-to-be-one-of-the-few-people-who-does-not-believe-that-covid-victims-were-murdered/917193/29 "2020-08-04T21:10:09Z")
> [@DeadTreasSecretaries](#): > > Jared Kushner decided it wasn’t important to coordinate a federal response because covid was hitting blue states anyway. I read this story. If it’s true, I’m not sure you can call it murder, but it deserves the death penalty if any other crime does. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2020, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-seem-to-be-one-of-the-few-people-who-does-not-believe-that-covid-victims-were-murdered/917193/30 "2020-08-04T21:17:36Z")
Republicans love those guys. Republicans defend those guys. Republicans think those guys are just the bee’s knees. Never forget it. ---
**Author:** ![xanthous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/53a042/32.png) [@xanthous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xanthous)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2020, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-seem-to-be-one-of-the-few-people-who-does-not-believe-that-covid-victims-were-murdered/917193/31 "2020-08-04T21:38:34Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > The common one I hear is that this is purely political and is purposely being blown out of proportion by the left to get rid of Trump and that HCQ works just fine but the left isn’t allowing doctors to prescribe it. Many of them seem to believe that this will all go away as soon as the election is over (or if/when Biden is in the White House). > What those people don’t seem to have an answer for is when you say “fine, you might be right, it makes sense, but if this is political, why is it happening all over the world? I had this conversation with my mother, nearly verbatim. (She takes the former stance) ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2020, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-seem-to-be-one-of-the-few-people-who-does-not-believe-that-covid-victims-were-murdered/917193/32 "2020-08-05T05:00:03Z")
Even before he got sick, some people wondered if it was unconsciously suicidal. Then again, maybe it was incubating when he attended, which is even scarier. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2020, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-seem-to-be-one-of-the-few-people-who-does-not-believe-that-covid-victims-were-murdered/917193/33 "2020-08-05T05:09:43Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > Even before he got sick, **some people** wondered if **it** was unconsciously suicidal. Then again, maybe it was incubating when he attended, which is even scarier ?? Wondered if _what_ was unconsciously suicidal ?? And _who_ was wondering? ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2020, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-seem-to-be-one-of-the-few-people-who-does-not-believe-that-covid-victims-were-murdered/917193/34 "2020-08-05T21:52:18Z")
Maybe some have, but calling it a clear-cut murder in all jurisdictions would require a particular set of circumstances that I don’t think have been alleged. If a young progressive with an active COVID infection attended an “OPEN AMERICA” rally with the intent of infecting the attendees (or if an infected conservative attended a BLM meeting with the same intent) and people got sick and died, I think a prosecutor might be able to charge and prove murder. That’s a rare circumstance, though. Now, if someone knows they are infected and deliberately decides to try to infect others - such as being the guest of honor at a COVID party- and other attendee at that party contracts the disease and dies, I do believe that person is guilty of a serious crime due to depraved indifference. But whether or not that rises to murder would depend on the laws of that jurisdiction. But in some jurisdictions you have to prove malice to get to murder. You have that in my first example but not the second. Now, I’d someone is knowingly infected and breaks quarantine and infects someone at the grocery, that one is probably more like negligent homicide - a prosecutor might try for depraved indifference but that might be a hard case, it would probably be easier to get a conviction for negligent homicide. It’s not murder until there is a conviction, and there aren’t clear cut answers in these situations, it’s not like a gunshot murder. A lot depends on how aggressive the prosecutors are and how skilled all the lawyers are, IANAL, but I’ve been watching way too much Law and Order during lockdown. But screaming that someone who has no reason to believe they are infected is guilty of attempted murder by going to the grocery unmasked— I don’t think that would hold up. It’s mostly hyperbole. And while I think our government response to COVID was horrendous, I don’t think you could prove a crime - you would have to link a specific act by an official directly to the death of a specific person and I’m not sure you could sell that to a jury. ---
**Author:** ![LilXMo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lilxmo/32/4225_2.png) [@LilXMo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilXMo)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2020, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-seem-to-be-one-of-the-few-people-who-does-not-believe-that-covid-victims-were-murdered/917193/35 "2020-08-07T07:14:10Z")
News broadcasters are stating “### people have been killed by COVID” (Nora McDonell) The words killed and murdered aren’t being used correctly. They are action words with intention (usually). COVID is an illness that wreaks havoc on someone’s health that could and does result in death. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2020, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-seem-to-be-one-of-the-few-people-who-does-not-believe-that-covid-victims-were-murdered/917193/36 "2020-08-07T08:29:59Z")
> [@LilXMo](#): > > News broadcasters are stating “### people have been killed by COVID” (Nora McDonell) The words killed and murdered aren’t being used correctly. “Kill” merely means “cause the death of.” It has no implications about intent. “Murder” requires intent. And, in this case, we’re dealing with garden-variety personification. It’s no different than when we say “heart attacks kill \_\_\_\_ people a year.” COVID-19 hasn’t murdered anyone, since it not only has no intent to kill, but would “prefer” that we stay alive so it could keep on reproducing and spreading. But I can’t say the same about some other actors involved in this. But it has killed. And continues to kill. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2020, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-seem-to-be-one-of-the-few-people-who-does-not-believe-that-covid-victims-were-murdered/917193/37 "2020-08-07T08:30:04Z")
I’m hearing this kind of comment more clearly in the context of China. Smirking Republican spokespeople and politicians saying that the deaths are on the hands of the “communist ccp”. For the sake of this thread, I won’t go over that topic again here. Just to say I would neither consider the US or Chinese governments “murderers” in the context of covid. But I would certainly put more of the blame on the American deaths on the US federal response and misinformation (I want to say “fake news”, but since Trump, the meaning of that phrase has become inverted) ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2020, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-seem-to-be-one-of-the-few-people-who-does-not-believe-that-covid-victims-were-murdered/917193/39 "2020-08-11T19:56:13Z")
The great number of people that believe that COVID victims were murdered are a) trolling, b) prone to hyperbole or c) both. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2020, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-seem-to-be-one-of-the-few-people-who-does-not-believe-that-covid-victims-were-murdered/917193/40 "2020-08-11T20:09:04Z")
Hyperbole is awesome. I am not a lawyer, and would consider a murder to have occurred if somebody does something deliberately with knowledge that it could kill people and then (surprise surprise!) people are killed by it. I note here that there are mitigating circumstance that could de-qualify one for the label despite the above being true: notably self defense, and debatably “just following orders”. Is that hyberbole? Well, it’s not the legal definition of “murder”, so yeah, probably. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2020, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-seem-to-be-one-of-the-few-people-who-does-not-believe-that-covid-victims-were-murdered/917193/41 "2020-08-11T21:32:20Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Hyperbole is awesome. Just the awesome-most thing ever! Also, “murder” has both a technical/legal definition and a common-language informal usage. In the informal sense, yes, government missteps have murdered thousands of people. Won’t stand up in court, but in the “court of public opinion,” a lot of people feel that way. (Of course, Trump cites “lots of people” too… I feel smirched…) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-seem-to-be-one-of-the-few-people-who-does-not-believe-that-covid-victims-were-murdered/917193.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-seem-to-be-one-of-the-few-people-who-does-not-believe-that-covid-victims-were-murdered/917193.md?page=3)