# I seriously doubt we live a single existence with infinite "nothing" on either side **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 27, 2018, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-seriously-doubt-we-live-a-single-existence-with-infinite-nothing-on-either-side/811233 "2018-03-27T00:32:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Marcus\_Flavius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@Marcus\_Flavius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marcus_Flavius)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-seriously-doubt-we-live-a-single-existence-with-infinite-nothing-on-either-side/811233/1 "2018-03-27T00:32:29Z")
This seems to be the sensible “default” rational assumption, but in my view it is quite false. It gives too transitory a view of existence. As if one does not exist for eons, then, suddenly, one exists, but only for a blink of an eye, cosmically speaking, and then, one ceases to exist forever. As if our existence was like turning on a light for a second and then flicking it off. Never to flick the switch again. In my view, existence is not linear, it is cyclical, or circular. One does not come into existence at ‘birth’, or leave existence at ‘death,’ they are merely a beginning of a new cycle. To explain this view, existence should be visualized as a circle, not as a straight line. The bottom of the circle represents birth/death. In this model a man is born, then goes round the circle, eventually coming back again to the point at the bottom of the circle. Upon death, ‘you,’ that is to say, your awareness, does not vanish into “nothingness.” It has nowhere else to go except back to the beginning, back to your conception. What do you think? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-seriously-doubt-we-live-a-single-existence-with-infinite-nothing-on-either-side/811233/2 "2018-03-27T00:35:40Z")
> [@Marcus\_Flavius](#): > > What do you think? I think that’s lovely–I’m not being sarcastic, I do–but I don’t see evidence or reason to believe it. Which may not mean much. For awhile I was pagan, and when I was I dealt with the issue of evidence by talking about pocketing disbelief: for my religious purposes, the literal truth of my beliefs was irrelevant, it was the beauty and emotional resonance and guidance toward living right that mattered. Eventually, though, I found it harder and harder to pocket disbelief, so I found myself turning atheist. Your cycle idea is lovely. But I can’t pocket my disbelief. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-seriously-doubt-we-live-a-single-existence-with-infinite-nothing-on-either-side/811233/3 "2018-03-27T00:38:42Z")
There’s something vaguely related to that, which I believe. What makes me up is matter, cohered into a self-organizing pattern. That pattern is me, and that pattern is self-aware, unlike most patterns out there. But while the self-awareness started sometime roughly around the time of my birth, and will end sometime roughly around the time of my death, the pattern itself doesn’t have such clear edges. The DNA that comprises a significant part of the pattern came before me and will continue in varied forms after me. Memories of me will continue after me. And as my body decomposes, it will do so in ways that influence other patterns around it. My ripples in the universe-pond will become indistinguishable subsumed into other ripples, eventually; but that which makes me up will become parts of new patterns, influencing them, forever. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-seriously-doubt-we-live-a-single-existence-with-infinite-nothing-on-either-side/811233/4 "2018-03-27T01:05:05Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I think that’s lovely–I’m not being sarcastic, I do–but I don’t see evidence or reason to believe it. > > Which may not mean much. For awhile I was pagan, and when I was I dealt with the issue of evidence by talking about pocketing disbelief: for my religious purposes, the literal truth of my beliefs was irrelevant, it was the beauty and emotional resonance and guidance toward living right that mattered. Eventually, though, I found it harder and harder to pocket disbelief, so I found myself turning atheist. > > Your cycle idea is lovely. But I can’t pocket my disbelief. Since you mention that the relevance for you at that time was in beauty, emotional resonance and guidance toward living right, did you notice a change in each of those 3 things after turning atheist? ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-seriously-doubt-we-live-a-single-existence-with-infinite-nothing-on-either-side/811233/5 "2018-03-27T01:10:49Z")
Not re-incarnation, though, it’s the same life? Does it change at all? Or am I still be too linear? ---
**Author:** ![Cugel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cugel/32/1199_2.png) [@Cugel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cugel)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-seriously-doubt-we-live-a-single-existence-with-infinite-nothing-on-either-side/811233/6 "2018-03-27T01:11:53Z")
> [@Marcus\_Flavius](#): > > As if one does not exist for eons, then, suddenly, one exists, but only for a blink of an eye, cosmically speaking, and then, one ceases to exist forever. Any other scenario seems weird to me. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-seriously-doubt-we-live-a-single-existence-with-infinite-nothing-on-either-side/811233/7 "2018-03-27T01:13:34Z")
> [@Marcus\_Flavius](#): > > Upon death, ‘you,’ that is to say, your awareness, does not vanish into “nothingness.” It has nowhere else to go except back to the beginning, back to your conception. I don’t understand what you mean by my “awareness” or how it can cycle through time. Is it something physical or sheerly metaphysical? Are you arguing that we are ineluctably ourselves from the moment of birth and that nothing we do in our lives change that? That doesn’t accord with anything I’ve seen in 67 years of life. It also appears to me to diminish life to a deeper nothingness than not living if all we do is relive what we are at death infinitely often. How is your awareness different from a soul? Do only humans have one? Do amoebas? Where do your circles end? I’m sorry, but I’ve got hundreds more of these questions. I get that everybody is afraid of death, but I don’t see how dodging the issue rises to the level of a philosophy. ---
**Author:** ![Marcus\_Flavius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@Marcus\_Flavius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marcus_Flavius)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-seriously-doubt-we-live-a-single-existence-with-infinite-nothing-on-either-side/811233/8 "2018-03-27T01:23:17Z")
> [@j666](#): > > Not re-incarnation, though, it’s the same life? Does it change at all? Or am I still be too linear? It’s not the exact same life. Only broadly the same. ---
**Author:** ![TimeWinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@TimeWinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimeWinder)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-seriously-doubt-we-live-a-single-existence-with-infinite-nothing-on-either-side/811233/9 "2018-03-27T01:31:48Z")
> [@Marcus\_Flavius](#): > > It’s not the exact same life. Only broadly the same. Great. But while I’m inclined to just say 'Cool story, bro," what if you’re right? What actual difference does it make, since we know we don’t remember any previous “iterations.” I am my memories. A person who shares my metaphysical soul? body? life essense? but not my memories is not me. I’m still dead. ---
**Author:** ![Marcus\_Flavius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@Marcus\_Flavius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marcus_Flavius)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-seriously-doubt-we-live-a-single-existence-with-infinite-nothing-on-either-side/811233/10 "2018-03-27T01:52:42Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > I don’t understand what you mean by my “awareness” or how it can cycle through time. Is it something physical or sheerly metaphysical? Are you arguing that we are ineluctably ourselves from the moment of birth and that nothing we do in our lives change that? That doesn’t accord with anything I’ve seen in 67 years of life. It also appears to me to diminish life to a deeper nothingness than not living if all we do is relive what we are at death infinitely often. > > How is your awareness different from a soul? Do only humans have one? Do amoebas? Where do your circles end? > > I’m sorry, but I’ve got hundreds more of these questions. I get that everybody is afraid of death, but I don’t see how dodging the issue rises to the level of a philosophy. If an entity has awareness, it simply means that it is experiencing and perceiving things. ‘Awareness’ is something intangible, it can go back and forward in time, unlike our physical bodies. Awareness differs from the ‘soul.’ The soul is the very fine matter/energy which animates our flesh bodies. The presence of a soul is what distinguishes the living from the ‘non-living.’ All things which we perceive to be ‘living’ have a soul. How the souls of various life forms differ, I do not know. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-seriously-doubt-we-live-a-single-existence-with-infinite-nothing-on-either-side/811233/11 "2018-03-27T01:54:49Z")
Awareness is an awesome thing. But if we’re going to to set it above all else as an endless thing, you have to diferentiate from other brain functions. Will my cough reflex ever die? And you have to step back and ask, are you just believing this because the alternative sucks? I rmember a line from the movie Awakenings. A doctor is asked “do they retain their mental faculties while comatose?”. He answers “no” and then is asked “how can you know?” and his answer is “because the alternative is unthinkable.” ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-seriously-doubt-we-live-a-single-existence-with-infinite-nothing-on-either-side/811233/12 "2018-03-27T02:31:55Z")
> [@Marcus\_Flavius](#): > > ‘Awareness’ is something intangible, it can go back and forward in time, unlike our physical bodies. Sounds very much like the definition of “awareness” is “nonsensical undefinable wish-fulfillment death-doesn’t-end-me.” Which is also the definition of “soul.” Which is OK. We all cope as we can. But my strong belief is that you should just run with this for yourself and not ask others for their opinion. As long as you are asking, though, what is “time”? ---
**Author:** ![Marcus\_Flavius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@Marcus\_Flavius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marcus_Flavius)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-seriously-doubt-we-live-a-single-existence-with-infinite-nothing-on-either-side/811233/13 "2018-03-27T02:43:43Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Sounds very much like the definition of “awareness” is “nonsensical undefinable wish-fulfillment death-doesn’t-end-me.” Which is also the definition of “soul.” > > Which is OK. We all cope as we can. But my strong belief is that you should just run with this for yourself and not ask others for their opinion. > > As long as you are asking, though, what is “time”? It’s not a coping mechanism. Death not ending this is pure nightmare. Time is just one dimension of space. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-seriously-doubt-we-live-a-single-existence-with-infinite-nothing-on-either-side/811233/14 "2018-03-27T03:00:30Z")
What difference is there between having a past existence I will never have any awareness of and not having a past existence? If all of my awareness of my current existence will disappear when I am reincarnated into my next existence, how is that any different than me dying? ---
**Author:** ![nate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nate/32/13085_2.png) [@nate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nate)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-seriously-doubt-we-live-a-single-existence-with-infinite-nothing-on-either-side/811233/15 "2018-03-27T03:46:01Z")
> [@Marcus\_Flavius](#): > > It’s not a coping mechanism. Death not ending this is pure nightmare. > > Time is just one dimension of space. If you can’t remember any past lives, why would the continuous cycle be a pure nightmare? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-seriously-doubt-we-live-a-single-existence-with-infinite-nothing-on-either-side/811233/16 "2018-03-27T03:47:16Z")
> [@Marcus\_Flavius](#): > > It’s not a coping mechanism. Death not ending this is pure nightmare. How is avoiding “pure nightmare” by imaging otherwise not the exact definition of a coping device? Or are you saying that your cycle is a “pure nightmare”? What are you saying here? ---
**Author:** ![Marcus\_Flavius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a4c791/32.png) [@Marcus\_Flavius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marcus_Flavius)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-seriously-doubt-we-live-a-single-existence-with-infinite-nothing-on-either-side/811233/17 "2018-03-27T06:01:10Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > How is avoiding “pure nightmare” by imaging otherwise not the exact definition of a coping device? > > Or are you saying that your cycle is a “pure nightmare”? > > What are you saying here? I mean the likelihood of us being trapped in a birth/death cycle is pure nightmare. Someone accused me of using this cyclical view of existence as a coping mechanism, I assume as alternative to the common view of one life, one death, and then ‘eternal oblivion.’ ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-seriously-doubt-we-live-a-single-existence-with-infinite-nothing-on-either-side/811233/18 "2018-03-27T06:07:16Z")
OK, say that instead of one life with infinite nothing on each side, I’m extended by a factor of ten. It’s still infinite nothing on each side. Besides… The fact that something looks to me as if it’s unlikely, unfair, or wrong, doesn’t change the universe’s attitude to it. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-seriously-doubt-we-live-a-single-existence-with-infinite-nothing-on-either-side/811233/19 "2018-03-27T09:31:23Z")
Whatever gets you through the day, bro. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-seriously-doubt-we-live-a-single-existence-with-infinite-nothing-on-either-side/811233/20 "2018-03-27T09:56:29Z")
It would seem, as you’ve defined it, that animals have awareness too, both experiencing and perceiving as they do. Are they in continuous rotation too? Do they go on and on, around and around, in the circle game? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-seriously-doubt-we-live-a-single-existence-with-infinite-nothing-on-either-side/811233.md?page=2)