# "I shot expert in basic training." **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 12, 2011, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-shot-expert-in-basic-training/578029 "2011-04-12T00:41:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-shot-expert-in-basic-training/578029/41 "2011-04-12T22:07:17Z")
> [@JerseyMarine2092](#): > > 600m offhanded shooting with iron sights is a helluva feat of marksmanship. I read that as they were shooting with their non-dominant hand from the standing. Is that correct? > > The 500 yard line was called out money maker in the Marine Corps. Despite the distance, you had the most stable firing position. You’d do all your firing from the prone, with the sling wrapped around you bicep for added stability. The M16A2’s rear sight allow for range adjustments. All you had to do was ensure you’d get good sight picture and then don’t farking move. At 500 yards the front sight post was the same width as the dog target. You’d just have to cut it in half with the top part of the post. Not to mention that at 500 yards and beyond, you’re shooting beyond the weapon’s official maximum effective range of 400 yards (IIRC). I was pretty deadly with a rifle, but at that range, it was tough to consistently get it near the bull. We had one guy on the team, however, who must have had telescopic vision and probably should have been a sniper instead of a carpenter. ---
**Author:** ![Moonlitherial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4bbf92/32.png) [@Moonlitherial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonlitherial)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-shot-expert-in-basic-training/578029/42 "2011-04-12T23:01:25Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Navy boot camp fam firing was a hoot. Having grown up with guns, I had no problems, but I kept hearing the rangemaster on the loudspeaker saying things like: “Number 23, you’re firing on number 30’s target.” “Number 31, please open your eyes and keep that weapon pointed downrange.” “Range coach: pull number 12 offline IMMEDIATELY!” “Number 23, you’re STILL shooting at number 30’s target.” “Range coach, please inform number 31 that he needs to load the weapon before pulling the trigger.” > > I was laughing so hard, I was afraid I’d be pulled offline and made to PT. I would have fit in very well there. I had been target shooting with the .22 rifle dad bought me when I was 10 so I was convinced the range would be no problem. BIG problem. We did our range testing with the FNC1 which is not a little girl gun. At the time I was about 100lbs. When shooting prone my instructor had to stand on my back to keep me from being pushed backwards several inches with each shot. I had bruises on my face and shoulder and I finally passed thanks to a charming young man with a sharp pencil in the bunker. Never fired another weapon while in the airforce. ---
**Author:** ![JerseyMarine2092](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyMarine2092](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyMarine2092)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-shot-expert-in-basic-training/578029/43 "2011-04-12T23:08:21Z")
> [@Spavined\_Gelding](#): > > Ah ha! I have been challenged on the credibility of my memory. A dispute without any possibility of satisfactory resolution I took you for your word to be honest. I’ve seen some crazy impressive shooting myself. I just needed clarification because I’ll occasionally hear off-handed to mean firing with your weak hand. I know when I fire from the left side my accuracy goes to hell. My movements are way to jerky, and I loose most of the other fundamentals besides send a bunch of lead down range. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-shot-expert-in-basic-training/578029/44 "2011-04-12T23:33:10Z")
You folks are better than Oswald. Best he did was Sharpshooter. Sometimes being lucky is better than being good. A lot of people still say that shot he made in Dealey Plaza was pure luck. ` > [@](#): > > ------Oswald’s Marine Rifle Scores------ > > Even after weeks of practice and intensive training, Oswald barely managed to qualify at the level of “Sharpshooter,” the middle of three rifle qualification levels in the Marines. He obtained a score of 212, two points above the minimum for the “Sharpshooter” level. In other words, even after extensive training and practice, and even though he was firing at stationary targets with a semi-automatic rifle and had plenty of time to shoot (even during the so-called “rapid-fire” phase), Oswald narrowly missed scoring at the lowest possible qualification level. > > The next time Oswald fired for record in the Marines, he barely managed to qualify at all, obtaining a score of 191, which was one point above the minimum needed for the lowest qualification level, “Marksman.” To put it another way, he came within two points of failing to qualify. [http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/the\_critics/griffith/oswald\_poor\_shot.html](http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/the_critics/griffith/oswald_poor_shot.html) ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2011, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-shot-expert-in-basic-training/578029/45 "2011-04-12T23:33:31Z")
> [@JerseyMarine2092](#): > > 600m offhanded shooting with iron sights is a helluva feat of marksmanship. I read that as they were shooting with their non-dominant hand from the standing. Is that correct? > > The 500 yard line was called out money maker in the Marine Corps. Despite the distance, you had the most stable firing position. You’d do all your firing from the prone, with the sling wrapped around you bicep for added stability. The M16A2’s rear sight allow for range adjustments. All you had to do was ensure you’d get good sight picture and then don’t farking move. At 500 yards the front sight post was the same width as the dog target. You’d just have to cut it in half with the top part of the post. Jersey (and others), how did you guys handle wind? Did you have range flags/dope the mirage, and then made windage adjustments accordingly? Did you apply Kentucky windage? Obviously, I’ve never been in the service. Most of my rifle shooting has been either benchrest or 4-position gallery, or we simply didn’t do a lot of it when the wind was really going. ---
**Author:** ![JerseyMarine2092](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyMarine2092](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyMarine2092)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-shot-expert-in-basic-training/578029/46 "2011-04-13T01:20:04Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > Jersey (and others), how did you guys handle wind? Did you have range flags/dope the mirage, and then made windage adjustments accordingly? Did you apply Kentucky windage? Obviously, I’ve never been in the service. Most of my rifle shooting has been either benchrest or 4-position gallery, or we simply didn’t do a lot of it when the wind was really going. We make windage adjustments on the rear sight aperture. There’s a bunch of range flags, 4 or so on the firing line, and 4 on the berm that you judge the wind off of. That’s all on the KD range. For combat fires we use good ole’ Kentucky Windage. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-shot-expert-in-basic-training/578029/47 "2011-04-13T17:20:26Z")
Former Army Tanker here, and at Knox in 1986 we had to qualify with the .45, but we only had to familiarize with the M-16, even though it was on the same course the Cav Scouts qualified on. For the .45, IIRC it was 36 out of 40 shots “on target” to qualify Expert; I only got high 20s out of 40 and was qualified as a Sharpshooter. I later qualified Expert for the rest of my service at various units. The M-16 familiarization fired at 100, 200, 300, and 400 yards in various standing, kneeling, and prone positions. I also rated Sharpshooter (those 400 yard targets were kinda fuzzy in my sights), but since it was only a familiarization, it didn’t count for anything, and it was the last time I fired an M-16 in the Army. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-shot-expert-in-basic-training/578029/48 "2011-04-13T17:43:41Z")
Since nobody mentioned it, “shooting expert in basic” in the Army actually refers to shooting \>35/40 hits in BRM (basic rifle marksmanship) qualification. This involves shooting from fairly easy positions (prone and foxhole) at fairly sensitive mechanical popup targets. It’s not sniper training, it’s not ARM (advanced rifle marksmanship). I personally shot 37 with no more prior experience than backyard plinking with a BB gun. I just have decent fine motor skill, and I paid attention to the training. A little girl could probably do it. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-shot-expert-in-basic-training/578029/49 "2011-04-13T18:24:12Z")
> [@Cosmic Relief](#): > > Since nobody mentioned it, “shooting expert in basic” in the Army actually refers to shooting \>35/40 hits in BRM (basic rifle marksmanship) qualification. This has been mentioned several times in this thread. > [@](#): > > This involves shooting from fairly easy positions (prone and foxhole) at fairly sensitive mechanical popup targets. This hasn’t been mentioned because it isn’t true. Not anymore. > [@](#): > > It’s not sniper training, it’s not ARM (advanced rifle marksmanship). Been mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-shot-expert-in-basic-training/578029/50 "2011-04-13T18:40:59Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > When I joined the Canadian Forces I was scoring at the highest levels right off the bat, and I’d never touched a firearm before. The only time I’ve ever fired live ammo was on our range days and other times we had a chance to blow off some ammo. Maybe 20 in all, tops. > > I think a lot of its has to do with your heart rate or your central nervous system, as my father was also an excellent shot. > > But that said, almost anyone with some practice could get at least a very good score on standard range distances of 100 to 200 metres. Military rifles are accurate and easy to use, so in perfect conditions at ranges where wind doesn’t have much impact, it’s really not very difficult. Yes, guns are designed so anyone can get reasonably good at them. Obviously Olympic shooting style competition marksmanship is a different game, and actually not terribly important for a front line infantryman (movement is a huge part of warfare and can be absent from most typical Olympic style shooting competitions.) The biggest reason European armies started rolling with muskets wasn’t that they were more accurate (it was some time before a person using a firearm could be more accurate than a trained archer firing a long bow), or that they were especially more deadly (musket balls were capable of delivering greater force at a target, but long bows of the day were essentially more than deadly enough even against armor), or that they had a better rate of fire (it wasn’t until probably the 18th or 19th century when you had gun wielding soldiers with a higher rate of fire than traditional archers), it was that you could train a musket wielding soldier in a few months whereas a skilled archer started training as a boy and wasn’t fully accomplished until adulthood. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2011, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-shot-expert-in-basic-training/578029/51 "2011-04-13T18:50:10Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Yes, guns are designed so anyone can get reasonably good at them. Obviously Olympic shooting style competition marksmanship is a different game, and actually not terribly important for a front line infantryman (movement is a huge part of warfare and can be absent from most typical Olympic style shooting competitions.) > > The biggest reason European armies started rolling with muskets wasn’t that they were more accurate (it was some time before a person using a firearm could be more accurate than a trained archer firing a long bow), or that they were especially more deadly (musket balls were capable of delivering greater force at a target, but long bows of the day were essentially more than deadly enough even against armor), or that they had a better rate of fire (it wasn’t until probably the 18th or 19th century when you had gun wielding soldiers with a higher rate of fire than traditional archers), it was that you could train a musket wielding soldier in a few months whereas a skilled archer started training as a boy and wasn’t fully accomplished until adulthood. And of course it was also a lot easier to produce ammunition for a musket than it was to produce arrows. Fletching was time consuming, labor intensive and required a decent amount of skill. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2011, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-shot-expert-in-basic-training/578029/52 "2011-04-14T01:22:20Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > You folks are better than Oswald. Best he did was Sharpshooter. > > Sometimes being lucky is better than being good. A lot of people still say that shot he made in Dealey Plaza was pure luck. I went to that museum in Dealey Plaza, and the shot was really quite a short one. The first shot was at 184 feet, or about 61 yards, with a scope. Third shot was from 294 feet, or 98 yards. All three shots from less than half the minimum distance he shot on the range with iron sights. Not quite fish in a barrel, but not a tough shot. ---
**Author:** ![Justadad849](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dec6dc/32.png) [@Justadad849](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justadad849)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-shot-expert-in-basic-training/578029/53 "2011-12-13T17:52:21Z")
While qualifying expert in any weapons training isn’t something to be ashamed about, it’s certainly no great feat in Army basic training. Qualifying as an expert only means that on a given day, you managed to hit 35 out of 40 targets of various ranges. It’s not super easy but doable and many trainees accomplish it. If you shoot less than expert, say Sharpshooter, you do have an option to try again during your military service period. ---
**Author:** ![JBDivmstr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b4bc9f/32.png) [@JBDivmstr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JBDivmstr)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-shot-expert-in-basic-training/578029/54 "2011-12-13T18:12:03Z")
> [@UncleBill](#): > > I went to that museum in Dealey Plaza, and the shot was really quite a short one. The first shot was at 184 feet, or about 61 yards, with a scope. Third shot was from 294 feet, or 98 yards. All three shots from less than half the minimum distance he shot on the range with iron sights. Not quite fish in a barrel, but _ **not a tough shot** _. (bolding mine) IMHO it _would_ qualify as a ‘tough’ shot, for the simple fact that LHO was shooting at a _ **moving** _ target. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Gbro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Gbro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gbro)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-shot-expert-in-basic-training/578029/55 "2011-12-13T21:01:48Z")
> [@MsRobyn](#): > > You’re also looking at selection and confirmation biases. The people who shot expert were probably already shooting when they joined, so they came in with a certain amount of expertise and skill that most recruits wouldn’t have. I thought I knew everything there was about shooting because I could out shoot all my friends before joining the Army. With that attitude i almost didn’t qualify and got what I call the toilet seat badge. I actually did shoot marksman but only by 1 or 2 points and was so discussed-ed with myself that I would just refer to myself as a marksman. ☹ Having never fired a hand gun I easily scored expert. One thing to remember with these claimed qualifications, the DD-214 papers will list qualifications. ---
**Author:** ![Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-shot-expert-in-basic-training/578029/56 "2011-12-13T22:44:18Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > If someone tells me “I shot expert at Basic training” I assume they never fired it since. This cannot be stressed enough. Think about all the actual cool shit that people in the military get to do. Then think about what kind of person doesn’t have anything more interesting to talk about than basic training. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2011, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-shot-expert-in-basic-training/578029/57 "2011-12-14T00:53:23Z")
> [@Justadad849](#): > > While qualifying expert in any weapons training isn’t something to be ashamed about, it’s certainly no great feat in Army basic training. Qualifying as an expert only means that on a given day, you managed to hit 35 out of 40 targets of various ranges. It’s not super easy but doable and many trainees accomplish it. If you shoot less than expert, say Sharpshooter, you do have an option to try again during your military service period. The _option_? What are you talking about? All Soldiers must qualify twice a year throughout their “military service period”. That isn’t an option. Also, as has been pointed out numerous times, Expert in the Army is 36, not 35. ---
**Author:** ![JerseyMarine2092](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyMarine2092](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyMarine2092)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2011, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-shot-expert-in-basic-training/578029/58 "2011-12-14T01:03:22Z")
> [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](#): > > This cannot be stressed enough. > > Think about all the actual cool shit that people in the military get to do. Then think about what kind of person doesn’t have anything more interesting to talk about than basic training. Very, very true. I remember our Senior Drill Instructor telling us that if boot was the toughest thing we’d do in the Corps, then we must not of have much of Marine Corps career. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2011, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-shot-expert-in-basic-training/578029/59 "2011-12-14T01:45:42Z")
> [@JBDivmstr](#): > > (bolding mine) > > IMHO it _would_ qualify as a ‘tough’ shot, for the simple fact that LHO was shooting at a _ **moving** _ target. 😉 Wow, a zombie thread I killed. The target was moving almost directly away from the window, very slight left to right aspect, and down a hill, slight up to down motion, if any, all less than 100 yards, at an estimated speed of 11 mph. I still say not that hard, but I was a killer from that 500 yards prone position slow fire on the USMC KD Course, so my perception may be different from some folks’. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2011, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-shot-expert-in-basic-training/578029/60 "2011-12-14T02:50:30Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > WTF? Flamethrower??? How do I get in on one of these tests??!?!? Flamethrowers are legal in most of the US. The state Of California, whose relevant laws are the only ones recycled on the net, adjudicate their use as a misdemeanor. Is America great or what!😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-shot-expert-in-basic-training/578029.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-shot-expert-in-basic-training/578029.md?page=4)