# I Show Up (in 1900) With a Complete Set Of Plans For a 2000 Car **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 11, 2011, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-show-up-in-1900-with-a-complete-set-of-plans-for-a-2000-car/595951 "2011-09-11T16:58:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-show-up-in-1900-with-a-complete-set-of-plans-for-a-2000-car/595951/1 "2011-09-11T16:58:56Z")
Suppose I am able to time travel back to 1900, and I carry with me a complete set of plans, specifications, drawings for a modern automobile. Suppose I also get to see J. P Morgan and Thomas Edison, and I present my plans. Imagine- a reliable horseless carriage, and all the plans to make the engine, transmission, electrical system, etc. Basically, I have delivered 100 years of R&D into the hand s of two industrial titans. Would they: -say I am mad? -look at the specifications and tell me (politely)" this cannot be done"? -throw me ot of the office? Or could these guys grasp the potential of what I had? JP Morgan was always looking for new ventures-he financed a lot of industrial development-wold he set me up as a partner in his new automobile company? ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-show-up-in-1900-with-a-complete-set-of-plans-for-a-2000-car/595951/2 "2011-09-11T17:11:03Z")
The problem is 100 years ago the machines that make today’s automobiles did not exist. The metallurgy didn’t exist and the ability to machine/ manufacture parts to the tolerances currently used did not exist. Add to that most of today’s automobiles could not traverse the roads (or actually lack of roads) that existed then. Finally modern autos are computer networks on wheels. How are you going to manufacture IC chips in 1900? Ain’t gonna happen. As soon as you answer JP or Tom when they point to the engine control module and ask “What’s that?” you will be consigned to the nuttier than a fruitcake department. You might be able to manufacture something stupid simple like a 2CV, but not a modern automobile. ---
**Author:** ![DorkVader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/73ab20/32.png) [@DorkVader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DorkVader)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-show-up-in-1900-with-a-complete-set-of-plans-for-a-2000-car/595951/3 "2011-09-11T19:12:14Z")
yeah, your best bet would be to take back the plans for a truck of some type from probably sometime in the 1960’s at best, Possibly early 1970s but thats when they started using modern electronics as we understand them in cars. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-show-up-in-1900-with-a-complete-set-of-plans-for-a-2000-car/595951/4 "2011-09-11T21:28:32Z")
> [@guestchaz](#): > > yeah, your best bet would be to take back the plans for a truck of some type from probably sometime in the 1960’s at best, Possibly early 1970s but thats when they started using modern electronics as we understand them in cars. But I would think that today’s engineers could, as an exercise, come up with plans for a car that COULD be built with 1900’s technology, but use knowledge gained in retrospect over the years on how generally to build a more reliable and more efficient car. People build kit cars all the time. ---
**Author:** ![spotthegerbil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@spotthegerbil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spotthegerbil)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2011, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-show-up-in-1900-with-a-complete-set-of-plans-for-a-2000-car/595951/5 "2011-09-11T23:44:49Z")
The first three cars that entered my head were… Mini (A real one. Germans do not make real Mini’s) Morris Minor Land Rover They should be modern enough to advance the industry, but still within the realm of posibility for a 1900’s engineer. A Lotus 7 chassis could also be a possibility. Engine from an old Ford Cortina should be simple enough. ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-show-up-in-1900-with-a-complete-set-of-plans-for-a-2000-car/595951/6 "2011-09-12T15:54:39Z")
They could probably learn some things, but overall most if it would be impossible without the technology build-up that has happened over 100 years. It would be like throwing advanced calculus problems at a person who has only had basic addition and subtraction lessons. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-show-up-in-1900-with-a-complete-set-of-plans-for-a-2000-car/595951/7 "2011-09-12T16:44:42Z")
Edison probably wouldn’t be interested unless it’s 100% electric and Morgan might sell to Studebaker in a few years, as was done with his shares of [EMF](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-M-F_Company). Skip the middleman and go to John Studebaker with plans for a '63 Avanti. ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-show-up-in-1900-with-a-complete-set-of-plans-for-a-2000-car/595951/8 "2011-09-12T16:51:27Z")
A modern car would also be just ridiculously expensive. A lot of the features we take for granted (electric windows, remote door openers, air conditioning, intermittent wipers, automatic transmission) were expensive luxury features when they came out. A Model-T was (slightly exaggerating) a horse drawn carriage with an internal combustion engine bolted to it. For much of the US manufacturing history, current manufacturing and Q/A techniques would defy the whole theory of planned obsolescence. Why would a car manufacturer in, say, 1950 want to build a car that would run for 200,000 miles without rusting into a million pieces? ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-show-up-in-1900-with-a-complete-set-of-plans-for-a-2000-car/595951/9 "2011-09-12T16:54:12Z")
Yep. Better off with something from the late 60’s . A jeep or some such. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-show-up-in-1900-with-a-complete-set-of-plans-for-a-2000-car/595951/10 "2011-09-12T17:21:15Z")
> [@guestchaz](#): > > yeah, your best bet would be to take back the plans for a truck of some type from probably sometime in the 1960’s at best, Possibly early 1970s but thats when they started using modern electronics as we understand them in cars. How about a 50s or early 60s VW Bug? I’d think it might be within the reach of 1900 manufacturing, and handle the roads fairly decently. Now that I think of it, your biggest problem might be tires. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-show-up-in-1900-with-a-complete-set-of-plans-for-a-2000-car/595951/11 "2011-09-12T17:29:10Z")
> [@spotthegerbil](#): > > The first three cars that entered my head were… > > Mini (A real one. Germans do not make real Mini’s) > Morris Minor > Land Rover > > They should be modern enough to advance the industry, but still within the realm of posibility for a 1900’s engineer. > > A Lotus 7 chassis could also be a possibility. Engine from an old Ford Cortina should be simple enough. You might want to rethink your choices of the mini, the Lotus, and the Morris Model T > **[model t +road - Google Search](https://www.google.com/m/search?site=images&gl=us&client=safari&source=mog&hl=en&aq=&oq=&aqi=&fkt=&fsdt=&cqt=&rst=&htf=&his=&maction=&sa=2&q=model%2Bt%2B%2Broad#i=28)** 😃 ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-show-up-in-1900-with-a-complete-set-of-plans-for-a-2000-car/595951/12 "2011-09-12T18:07:56Z")
Actually, I’m pretty confidant that all of the metal parts could be fabricated. They would be expensive, but metalworking techniques were well-developed in 1911. However, Bakelite was the only plastic available at the time, so a huge percentage of a modern car couldn’t be manufactured. Of course, none of the electronics could be made, either. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-show-up-in-1900-with-a-complete-set-of-plans-for-a-2000-car/595951/13 "2011-09-12T18:49:25Z")
Sheet metal sure. The machining for the engine and trans? Nope. CNC milling did not exist. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-show-up-in-1900-with-a-complete-set-of-plans-for-a-2000-car/595951/14 "2011-09-12T19:54:35Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > Sheet metal sure. The machining for the engine and trans? Nope. CNC milling did not exist. Like I said - I don’t think it would be cheap. But, Mills and gear-cutting machines were around in 1911, and with enough effort, existing machine tools could have fabricated the required parts manually. There might be some issue with the hardness of the available steel, but that’s probably only a longevity issue. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-show-up-in-1900-with-a-complete-set-of-plans-for-a-2000-car/595951/15 "2011-09-12T20:37:35Z")
Plus - I don’t know that the OP is talking about putting up a factory and churning out VW Bugs or what have you. Bring back plans for something that is a big stretch, but shows what can be done: front-wheel drive, electric start (which is of course a freeby on any modern car), automatic transmission. As noted, you’d have to steer clear of electronics. Assuming we’re talking late early 70’s design - I’d guess that it might shave 30 years off of design (guessing based on no background whatsoever). ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-show-up-in-1900-with-a-complete-set-of-plans-for-a-2000-car/595951/16 "2011-09-12T20:49:45Z")
back then, what little gasoline was around was considered a by-product. How would you run a modern car (or even one from the '70s) on 50-octane gas full of sulfur and other impurities? **ETA:** as for the metallurgical aspects of it, sure there was machining back then, but modern cars rely on so many advances like high-pressure aluminum die casting for engine blocks and cylinder heads, which would be impossible back then. The best they could do is crude sand-cast gray iron. The plastics and polymers just didn’t exist back then either. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-show-up-in-1900-with-a-complete-set-of-plans-for-a-2000-car/595951/17 "2011-09-12T22:02:45Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > back then, what little gasoline was around was considered a by-product. How would you run a modern car (or even one from the '70s) on 50-octane gas full of sulfur and other impurities? > > … Ethanol? Flex fuel (ethanol/gasoline) have been around for a long time. Wikipedia seems to say that flex fuel vehicles were available commercially in 1908. Ethanol was dirt common and was made in plentiful quantities in them thar hills. > **[Flexible-fuel vehicle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexible-fuel_vehicle)** > > A flexible-fuel vehicle (FFV) or dual-fuel vehicle (colloquially called a flex-fuel vehicle) is an alternative fuel vehicle with an internal combustion engine designed to run on more than one fuel, usually gasoline blended with either ethanol or methanol fuel, and both fuels are stored in the same common tank. Modern flex-fuel engines are capable of burning any proportion of the resulting blend in the combustion chamber as fuel injection and spark timing are adjusted automatically according to ... > **[Ford Model T](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Model_T)** > > The Ford Model T is an automobile that was produced by the Ford Motor Company from October 1, 1908, to May 26, 1927. It is generally regarded as the first mass-affordable automobile, which made car travel available to middle-class Americans. The relatively low price was partly the result of Ford's efficient fabrication, including assembly line production instead of individual handcrafting. The savings from mass production allowed the price to decline from $780 in 1910 (equivalent to $ The Ford ... ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2011, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-show-up-in-1900-with-a-complete-set-of-plans-for-a-2000-car/595951/18 "2011-09-12T22:13:50Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Basically, I have delivered 100 years of R&D into the hand s of two industrial titans. Not really. You’ve delivered the _results_ of 100 years of R&D, but not the R&D itself. Why do you think Edison+Morgan can do any better than you could, given the 100 year jump back in time? ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2011, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-show-up-in-1900-with-a-complete-set-of-plans-for-a-2000-car/595951/19 "2011-09-14T17:17:30Z")
First of all, you couldn’t do it. A hard copy of the specifications and design docs for a modern automobile would take up several filing cabinets, and weigh in at more than the car itself would. The electronics alone would be about half of that. Each part has detailed specs covering their manufacture and tolerances which would be dozens of pages long for even things we think of as simple parts. Not to mention the chemistry which goes into the plastics, rubber or fuel and hydraulic systems. The most likely outcome is you’d revolutionize printing and paper manufacturing. The stuff on the paper is likely to be incomprehensible, but nice clean printing that doesn’t smudge, on clean paper, with intricate symbols, that would blow them away. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2011, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-show-up-in-1900-with-a-complete-set-of-plans-for-a-2000-car/595951/20 "2011-09-14T17:46:47Z")
for another example, here’s the engine block from an old Ford flathead V8 (introduced in 1932): [http://www.ccpauctions.com/lot-details.php?RefNum=273%20&EventID=61](http://www.ccpauctions.com/lot-details.php?RefNum=273%20&EventID=61) notice that there’s minimal structural features, no webbing, just a big thick lump of cast iron. compare that to the engine block from a new Chrysler 3.6 V6 (introduced in 2011): [![](http://www.bostonchryslerjeep.com/blogs/127/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/7-15-2011-10-15-08-AM.jpg) ](http://www.bostonchryslerjeep.com/blogs/127/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/7-15-2011-10-15-08-AM.jpg) There’s little chance that the ability to cast that existed in 1900, nor the alloys of aluminum which make it possible to do so. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-show-up-in-1900-with-a-complete-set-of-plans-for-a-2000-car/595951.md?page=2)