I signed up for Japanese lessons!

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
121

In our group of friends is a couple. The husband is Chinese and the wife is Chinese from Malayisa. Their boy is now in first grade, in a local school, and insists that they say the pitch accents wrong. I’m sure they do, but I’m sure I do the same as well. Pitch accents just aren’t widely taught, and you can be understood without using them. You just sound like a foreigner.

Similar to Henjin, I haven’t taken the formal tests to certify my language ability. According to my former Japanese teacher, if I studied kanji a little more I could get the Level One, and there’s no honor in a Level Two :wink: so I remain untested.

122

You’re bursting my bubble, TokyoPlayer. Why? Why must you do this?? Heh. Seriously, i just took Yon Kyuu and I feel quite honored. :slight_smile:

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Henjin, I hit your post and went :eek:. Could you provide hiragana? I’m curious how it reads in Japanese, and I have maybe three kanji.

I’ve been reading through Japanese in MangaLand, and I was interested to see that its writers were actually inspired in part by the translations In Mangajin. One thing that Mangajin did was separate the words in their translations, like this:


私  は  えいがかん  へ  いきます。
*watashi wa eigakan e ikimasu.*
I <topic> cinema <destination> go. 
I am going to the cinema.

(I hope I got that right.)

Japanese in MangaLand, however, doesn’t place spaces in the original Japanese to aid learning what parts of the sentence belong in which kanji. I have to work out which parts go where by elimination, and this doesn’t help locate the division when there are several kanji in a row. Is this something I’m just going to have to accept? Do most Japanese learning materials use furigana or explicit explanations nearby when introducing kanji?

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Okay, Henjin, すみません*, but it’s taking me way, way too long to respond to you in Japanese. Sumimasen
I’m SorryFirst of all, I’m quite impressed with your proficiency with the language. Most of your post was simple enough for me to understand, although some of the phrasing structure was foreign to me…especially for passages containing kanji I don’t know yet, and I figured the rest out through context. “I need not bother to take the test” (わざわざそんな試験を受ける必要ないと思います) kind of threw me a bit, and I didn’t know わざわざ, but presumed it meant ’ to bother’, which, for some reason I find funny. I’m still trying to get the tons and tons of onomatopoeia (heh) that are part of every day Japanese.

Anyway, I just completed Yon Kyuu on Sunday. The reason I took it was to see how much of the language I’ve retained to this point, and to determine my comfort level and bolster my confidence moving forward with y studies. It wasn’t a job requirement, or a milestone I had to achieve for any reason other than desire…plus I like taking tests. :slight_smile:

I didn’t consider it a waste of time and, all told, with the fee for the exam, gas for the trip back and forth to Washington DC from New Jersey to take the exam, and the nice lunch I bought myself after completing the exam, I spent well under $100, so I don’t even consider it a waste of money.

So, that’s my answer and I’m sticking to it. :slight_smile:

As soon as I can next year, I’m going to register for San Kyuu, unless I build a good head of steam in the next six months and can skip right to Ni Kuu, but I don’t really see that happening.

宜しくYoroshiku.
Regards.

125

Sunspace, If you go to http://nihongo.j-talk.com you can convert your kanji-laden phrases into spaced hiragana. Actually, the site has many options you may like.

126

That’s really interesting. Thanks!

(Is it still furigana if it’s in romaji?)

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@Sunspace:
I only read/post here on my phone from work, so it’s a little tedious (面倒くさい-めんどうくさい） to go back and provide furigana, sorry. If you use Firefox, though, I would recommend you search for ‘Rikaichan.’ It’s an extension that’ll give you the reading and definition for Japanese words (kanji or kana) you mouse over. Very convenient.

As for breaking up the words, I remember that being one of the difficulties when I first started. The only book I ever used that did that was a Japanese children’s book written completely in hiragana. Other than that, the grammar guide I used wrote w/ romaji (Which normally I don’t like, but the content made up for it. Basically learned the whole language from that one $7 book. Heh), and the workbook I had just included furigana.

Because learning a language is so gradual, it’s hard to remember what it was like when you just started, sometimes. But I do remember trying to translate 「それはしっている」 (Sore ha shitteiru; ‘I know that’), and dividing it up into ‘Sore washi tteiru,’ Or as I understood it, ‘That Eagle Something-something…’ Heh.

@Onomatopoeia

I’m glad I could impress somebody, but believe me, my Japanese is pretty slapdash. Tokyolayer could probably tell you that…

As for “わざわざそんな試験を受ける必要ないと思います”

If I broke it down:

わざわざ (wazawaza) - Intentionally, depending on context, kinda has implication of ‘bothering’ to do something, AFAIK
そんな試験 (Sonna shiken) - That kinda test
を受ける (wo ukeru) - To take/receive
必要(は）ない (Hitsuyou ha nai) - No need (I left out the particle on accident. When speaking, I think it sounds natural w/out it, but grammatically, it should be there)
と思います (to omoimasu) - I think

Hope that helps.

Onomatopoeiaさんはぎおんが分からないなんってたしかに皮肉ですね。

It’s definitely ironic that you don’t understand onomatopoeia.

Don’t even get me started on those types of words. There’re so many, and they all sound the same. The only ones I really know are the ones I’ve picked up naturally by hearing over and over again. I don’t think I could learn them by just sitting down and studying…

Back to the JLPT, I guess I can understand your reasons for taking it. Though since I hate tests, and in my current financial situation, I consider spending more than 4 dollars on lunch extravagant, I don’t think I’ll be joining you any time soon. Heh.
Maybe if I got to the point where I thought I could pass level 1, and wanted to find a job that would let me use my Japanese… But right now, I’m of the mind that I could definitely pass level 3, but only maybe 2 if I really tried.

For now, I guage my ability on how much I can read w/ out referring to my dictionary, and how confused my friends are after I’m done talking. Nothing like a silent car after a joke that derailed halfway through to motivate you… Heh.

128

IME, you’ll be introduced to a kanji and given its pronunciations in one or more contexts, as it will be used in that lesson. Thereafter, you will not be given furigana for it in that context. Kanji you have not yet learned will either not be used or will be used with furigana.

Once you start using kanji, you will probably not see spaces between words in sentences. This is actually one of the reasons, IMO, that kanji makes Japanese easier to read: when a sentence is written entirely in kana, it becomes much harder to parse.

I can’t remember if I’ve given this example in this thread before, but it’s always amusing, so I guess it bears repeating:

ここではきものをぬいでください。

When it’s written only in hiragana, this sentence can be parsed in two ways, with completely different meanings.

ここで履物を脱いでください。

Koko de hakimono o nuide kudasai.
Please remove your shoes here.

ここでは着物を脱いでください。

Koko de wa kimono o nuide kudasai.
Please remove your clothes here.

My favorite online resource is WWWJDIC. Here’s a sample definition:

The (P) by the first kanji means that when it’s written in kanji, the first way is the most common; the (uk) means that it’s usually written using kana, not kanji; and the (P) at the end means it’s a common word.

129

Thanks. I post from my phone at times as well (post #123, for example), so I know how awkward it can be. I’ll check out your recommendation.

Okay, I’ll keep this in mind. No spaces; just deal with it. Thanks!

130

Back in undergrad, my first Japanese professor’s opinion was that since pitch accent varies by area* that it wasn’t really worth teaching. That may be so, but its always seemed that those foreigners who did study it have much nicer sounding Japanese.

I’m told by my Japanese friends that my Japanese is very easy to understand but that it absolutely screams “foreigner!”

*IIRC from my class on Japanese linguistics, there’s actually an area of Japan that has an absolutely flat accent with no pitch changes. I wish I remembered where that was.

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**Everything **varies from area to area in *any language. That’s no reason not to teach the mainstream stuff. I mean, hell, it’s not like you won’t learn something like 分からない because somebody from Osaka would say 分からへん.

*Wakaranai.
**Wakarahen.
Both mean “(I don’t) understand.”

132

That’s pretty damn good for a non-native – you can already probably write Japanese better than 90% of most non-native speakers. But yeah, that is a pretty good mix of informal spoken Japanese :smiley: If I was going to give any advice, I’d say that depending on who you’re writing for you might want to be a bit more ‘formal’ (for example: 試験を受けた理由は何でしょうか。 Or instead of ～つもろじゃいないんですが、 use ‘つもりはありませんが、 and so on. Phrases such as ～ないんです are rarely used in writing except when texting your buddies. Better to get in the habit when writing of using the more formal style (ないのです、or ありません, etc.).

Also note that in formal settings, ごめんなさい (gomen nasai) is rarely used for ‘I’m sorry’, even though it is normally translated that way. Used far more often is ‘すみません (sumimasen), which is often translated as ‘excuse me’.

Years ago, most Japanese would tell us how great our Japanese is even after we’ve only said ‘hello’ and ‘nice to meet you’. It’s still a bit true today, and in a business setting we will certainly get far more leeway with our Japanese compared to a native Japanese co-worker. But the days when the majority of foreigners in Japan didn’t speak Japanese are long-gone: Just about every Japan-related non-Japanese co-worker/friend/industry contact etc. that I have speaks fluent Japanese. My Japanese is probably as good as my English by now, and I read post-grad level Japanese text in just about any subject without batting an eye - and I’m not even considered remotely special in my company.

That means two things: One, you’re going to need to actually have skills other than being able to speak Japanese if you want to get ahead. Second, if you’re only speaking a colloquial, truck-driver Japanese, you will remain popular at the inevitable drinking parties and such…but you will find that you aren’t invited to the important meetings. Or you never get to meet important clients. Or you never get a chance to meet the BigWigs. If you want to be taken seriously, focus on learning some proper keigo (honorifics) and learning how to write solid business Japanese. If you spend anytime in Japan outside of the Kanto area, don’t go overboard learning the local dialect of where you are (i.e., try not to pick up the ‘Kansai-ben’, or kansai dialect common around the Osaka area).

My first Japanese boss gave me this same advice, and not only has it served me very well, I’ve seen too many examples of people that didn’t follow that advice, and they’ve constantly been frustrating and confused, wondering why they aren’t getting ahead - and it’s mainly because no matter how smart they actually are, even though they do get leeway as a foreigner, the company doesn’t want to put them in front of clients if they aren’t going to represent the company in the way they want…

Re the JLPT: as someone that interviews people on a daily basis, including for jobs that require interpretor and/or translation skills, the JLPT is a completely meaningless item for me. I could care less whether the candidate has it or not. In fact, I don’t even notice when it’s not on the resume.

However - I think some grad schools (esp. in Japan) probably require it. And if you are somewhat competitive / like feedback or a barometer to measure progress, I can certainly see the test as a very good thing, a great motivational tool. If it keeps you studying, that can never be wasted time or money. Just don’t expect that it will open up any jobs for you down the road.

133

I’ve been studying for 6yrs, and speak/hear it every day, and I’m still not sure what you guys are talking about… Care to give some examples of the ‘pitch’ differences?

134

Between words? Common example is 雨 (A-me = rain, slightly higher stress on first syllable) vs あめ (ame = candy, mostly flat). Another common example is 箸 (hashi = chopsticks, accent on first syllable) vs 橋 (hashi = bridge, basically accent-less).

And there are countless differences between words spoken in the Kanto dialect and the same word in local dialects.

Most of the time I wouldn’t worry too much about it. If your grammer is OK, 99.9% of the time you will be completely understandable - but it will either be a tell-tale sign that either a) you’re a foreigner or b) you’re not from Tokyo :smiley:

135

I linked the Wikipedia article above. At the top of the article, there’s a button to play a recording that gives some examples, so you can hear them.

Here’s the link again:

136

I missed that last post of yours, but thanks for the feedback, Dragonash. ALWAYS appreciated. I actually started writing completely informally, i.e. 「JLPTを受けた人に聞きたいことある」 But then decided halfway through to make it a little more polite by just lazily changing the sentence endings… Let me give it another shot:

最初に、結構会話的な日本語で書きはじめましたが途中で、もう少し丁寧な日本語を使ったらいいかなと思って、中途半端に文の最後の言葉だけを変えました。残念ながら、最終的にいい加減な和文になってしまいました。ご迷惑を掛けたのであれば、申し訳はありません。
今度、丁寧語の練習としてこれを書きましたので、どうぞお読みになって、どう思うのかを述べていただきたいと思います。よろしくお願いします。

Basically what I said above in English, and then I asked him to let me know what he thinks of my attempt at polite Japanese.

As for the pitches, when you bring up the 雨/あめ thing, I get it. Thanks for the explanation.

And like I said earlier, I’m posting from a smartphone at work right now, so I can’t hear those samples, but I will try to check them out later. Thanks for the link.

137

Well, if I ever manage to drag my pasty Anglo ass over to Japan, it will be exquisitely obvious that I am a) a foreigner, and b) not from Tokyo. :slight_smile:

138

Ain’t that the truth. When I went there in '05, I was stared at like I was green and tentacled… If you’re not Japanese, it doesn’t take a slight variation in your sense-stress and pitch to give it away… Heh.

139

Six foot tall white American woman, with (at that point) short bleached-almost-white hair. And I transferred through Shinjuku Station (busiest in the world) almost every day. People were mostly too polite to stare to my face, but I had friends regale me with tales of how people would turn around and gape *after *I’d walked by. :smiley:

140

Shoot, I’m 5’5" w/ black hair & brown eyes and I still got eyeballed wherever Iwent…