# I smell the smelly smell of desperation: Obama not a citizen. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 15, 2008, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-smell-the-smelly-smell-of-desperation-obama-not-a-citizen/468002 "2008-10-15T03:23:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-smell-the-smelly-smell-of-desperation-obama-not-a-citizen/468002/101 "2008-10-27T00:52:13Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > As I understand it, dual citizenship is a recent development in the US. Perhaps there was no such thing as dual citizenship at the time he lived in Indonesia. When did he live in Indonesia? The US surpreme court ruling that says you can hold dual citizenship is 41 years old, and even if it wasn’t the case when he first moved there, it certainly was by the time he was an adult and would have to have picked his citizenship under the laws that preceeded. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-smell-the-smelly-smell-of-desperation-obama-not-a-citizen/468002/102 "2008-10-27T01:12:33Z")
Obama lived in Indonesia when he was a young child (between the ages of about 6-10, if I recall correctly). He was never a citizen of Indonesia, dual, or otherwise, nor would anyone have had the ability to strip him of his US citizenship when he was a child. He was born in the US, it’s he only citizenship he’s ever held. End of story. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-smell-the-smelly-smell-of-desperation-obama-not-a-citizen/468002/103 "2008-10-27T01:28:38Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] As I understand it, dual citizenship is a recent development in the US. Perhaps there was no such thing as dual citizenship at the time he lived in Indonesia. [/QUOTE] AFAIK dual citizenship isn’t new…at least not that new. Since he was born in Hawaii it would have been his CHOICE at 21, even if he did grow up in another country. Even if your parents are both foreign born (even illegal) immigrants it doesn’t matter if you were born on US soil…which he was. It’s a non-starter and really those pushing this ARE getting desperate to drag this thing out. -XT ---
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-smell-the-smelly-smell-of-desperation-obama-not-a-citizen/468002/104 "2008-10-27T02:17:24Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > [Judge tosses lawsuit](http://apnews.myway.com/article/20081025/D941NCJG0.html). > > Not exactly a bombshell. That the lawsuit was tossed is not a bombshell, but the reason it was tossed seems shocking to me. As I understand it, the judge says that an everyday citizen is not harmed by someone not meeting the constitutional requirements for presidency, so they may not file such a suit and have it taken seriously. If that is the case, I don’t understand what is to prevent someone who obviously doesn’t meet the criteria from running, say like the current governor of California. I am hoping a lawyer will pop in and explain it. I thought the suit would be dismissed for lack of evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-smell-the-smelly-smell-of-desperation-obama-not-a-citizen/468002/105 "2008-10-27T02:26:03Z")
I think the judge was saying it was a frivolous lawsuit, perhaps? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-smell-the-smelly-smell-of-desperation-obama-not-a-citizen/468002/106 "2008-10-27T02:27:22Z")
> [@lee](#): > > That the lawsuit was tossed is not a bombshell, but the reason it was tossed seems shocking to me. As I understand it, the judge says that an everyday citizen is not harmed by someone not meeting the constitutional requirements for presidency, so they may not file such a suit and have it taken seriously. If that is the case, I don’t understand what is to prevent someone who obviously doesn’t meet the criteria from running, say like the current governor of California. > > I am hoping a lawyer will pop in and explain it. > > I thought the suit would be dismissed for lack of evidence. Courts use the doctrine of [standing](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_(law)) to fulfill two ends: conserving judicial resources and, more importantly, to prevent overstepping the boundaries of their power which for federal courts is limited to “cases and controversies.” In short, if no one is being hurt by a violation of the law, there’s no sense using very limited judicial resources to examine the issue, and there really is no controversy to be settled. In this case, the judge said that even if Obama were ineligible, the harm done to a single random voter is entirely speculative and attenuated. It isn’t a good enough reason for the court to step in and sort things out. Presumably someone like McCain or the RNC _would_ have standing. What would prevent Arnold from running is that someone who does have standing would sue. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-smell-the-smelly-smell-of-desperation-obama-not-a-citizen/468002/107 "2008-10-27T02:34:36Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Presumably someone like McCain or the RNC _would_ have standing. > > What would prevent Arnold from running is that someone who does have standing would sue. OK, now I’m curious. If someone is ineligible to run for an office (any office, from dogcatcher on up), only his/her opponent(s), or possibly an opposing party has standing to sue? Not that I’m necessarily disagreeing with that, but I’m _very_ curious. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-smell-the-smelly-smell-of-desperation-obama-not-a-citizen/468002/108 "2008-10-27T02:37:24Z")
No, standing might not be limited to the opponent. I was just suggesting the opponent as the likeliest candidate (no pun intended). Who else might have standing? Hmm. Hard to say, really. I doubt there’s much precedent here. I’ll take a look and check back in. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-smell-the-smelly-smell-of-desperation-obama-not-a-citizen/468002/109 "2008-10-27T02:51:09Z")
A brief review of the precedent doesn’t turn up any cases of someone other than the candidate, his party, or an individual voter challenging a candidate’s eligibility. I’m not sure who that would be. A prospective appointee? Probably too speculative. A big donor maybe? I can’t think of too many possibilities. I did find a New Hampshire case from July 24th applying this same standing argument to a voter challenging McCain’s eligibility. I hadn’t heard about that one. ---
**Author:** ![rayh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@rayh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rayh)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-smell-the-smelly-smell-of-desperation-obama-not-a-citizen/468002/110 "2008-10-27T02:58:11Z")
The only thing I can find at the moment is this part of the ruling from Surrick: > [@](#): > > If, through the political process, Congress determines that citizens, voters, or party members should police the Constitution’s eligibility requirements for the Presidency, then it is free to pass laws conferring standing on individuals like Plaintiff. Until that time, voters do not have standing to bring the sort of challenge that Plaintiff attempts to bring in the Amended Complaint. Taken from [America’s Right](http://www.americasright.com/2008/10/lawsuit-against-obama-dismissed-from.html) so take it for what it is worth. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-smell-the-smelly-smell-of-desperation-obama-not-a-citizen/468002/111 "2008-10-27T02:58:43Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > A brief review of the precedent doesn’t turn up any cases of someone other than the candidate, his party, or an individual voter challenging a candidate’s eligibility. Well, it makes sense that the other candidate (or, stretching it) their party would have standing to challenge a candidate’s eligibility. Thinking further about it, it doesn’t really make sense that if I had evidence that a candidate running for the Senate from Missouri actually lived in Illinois, I couldn’t sue. Ah well, I guess I’d have to take the evidence to the candidate. I would have preferred that the suit against Obama be tossed out on the grounds of “too stupid to live”, but, whatever. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-smell-the-smelly-smell-of-desperation-obama-not-a-citizen/468002/112 "2008-10-27T04:00:28Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > … I did find a New Hampshire case from July 24th applying this same standing argument to a voter challenging McCain’s eligibility. I hadn’t heard about that one. From that decision, > [@](#): > > … the Supreme Court has “consistently held that a plaintiff raising only a generally available grievance about government–claiming only harm to his and every citizen’s interest in proper application of the Constitution and laws, and seeking relief that no more directly and tangibly benefits him than it does the public at large–does not state an Article III case or controversy.” Lujan, 504 U.S. at 573-74. … > … To be sure, courts have held that a candidate or his political party has standing to challenge the inclusion of an allegedly ineligible rival on the ballot, on the theory that doing so hurts the candidate’s or party’s own chances of prevailing in the election. But that notion of “competitive standing” has never been extended to voters challenging the eligibility of a particular candidate. …[RIGHT][Hollander v. McCain](http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/electionlaw/litigation/documents/Hollander-Order-7-24-08.pdf) PDF! [HTML](http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:UiPQ7H2Is8oJ:moritzlaw.osu.edu/electionlaw/litigation/documents/Hollander-Order-7-24-08.pdf&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us&client=firefox-a)[/RIGHT] CMC +fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-smell-the-smelly-smell-of-desperation-obama-not-a-citizen/468002/113 "2008-10-27T07:00:25Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Well, it makes sense that the other candidate (or, stretching it) their party would have standing to challenge a candidate’s eligibility. > > Thinking further about it, it doesn’t really make sense that if I had evidence that a candidate running for the Senate from Missouri actually lived in Illinois, I couldn’t sue. Ah well, I guess I’d have to take the evidence to the candidate. > > I would have preferred that the suit against Obama be tossed out on the grounds of “too stupid to live”, but, whatever. Part of what made it frivolous is that, unlike your example above, there was no evidence to show that Barack Obama might be from anywhere other than Hawaii. The burden of proof falls on the plaintiff, and it is not up to the defendant to “prove” his innocence. Mr. Berg had no evidence, just a stated “doubt”. The judge said sorry, :dubious: At least, that was how i read that part. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-smell-the-smelly-smell-of-desperation-obama-not-a-citizen/468002/114 "2008-10-27T13:52:27Z")
I haven’t been able to find Surrick’s ruling online, so I can’t speak to it. But we’ve been here before as to McCain. [Click here for a Northern District of California case ruling on his eligibility](http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/california/candce/3:2008cv03836/206145/39/). The judge first pointed out the the likelihood of success was very low, but then went on to discuss standing. The opinion stated that the plaintiff was in the stead of a taxpayer/voter, which is a low level of standing to begin with. And nothing in McCain’s eligibility has stopped the plaintiff from campaigning, voting for, or supporting his candidate of choice. The judge went on to discuss the Constitutional (Article ii, 12th Amendment, 20th Amendment) and legal (3 USC 15) clearly provide an avenue for determining the qualifications of someone to be President. The judge felt that, given that the actual election by electoral votes and determinations of eligibility have been clearly given to Congress; the judiciary should not involve itself during the campaign. “Judicial review – if any – should occur only after the electoral and Congressional processes have run their course.” When I can find Surrick’s ruling, I’ll try and check it out too. ---
**Author:** ![rayh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@rayh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rayh)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-smell-the-smelly-smell-of-desperation-obama-not-a-citizen/468002/115 "2008-10-27T15:44:23Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > When I can find Surrick’s ruling, I’ll try and check it out too. See post #110 where I quote the relevant section of the ruling. The website there also has a pdf download of the ruling. Here is the download [link](http://www.flds.ws/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/obama-surricks-10242008-ruling-2.pdf). ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2008, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-smell-the-smelly-smell-of-desperation-obama-not-a-citizen/468002/116 "2008-10-30T19:05:11Z")
The Governor of Hawai sealed Obama’s birth cirtificate until after the election? Doesn’t that just add to the conspiracy theory that Obama is hiding something? Doing it while Obama was visiting his grandmother is really poor timing. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2008, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-smell-the-smelly-smell-of-desperation-obama-not-a-citizen/468002/117 "2008-10-30T19:10:30Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The Governor of Hawai sealed Obama’s birth cirtificate until after the election? Doesn’t that just add to the conspiracy theory that Obama is hiding something? Doing it while Obama was visiting his grandmother is really poor timing. What Birth Certificate? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2008, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-smell-the-smelly-smell-of-desperation-obama-not-a-citizen/468002/118 "2008-10-30T19:13:50Z")
> [@Lamar Mundane](#): > > What Birth Certificate? [This one](http://www.politifact.com/media/img/graphics/birthCertObama.jpg). ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2008, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-smell-the-smelly-smell-of-desperation-obama-not-a-citizen/468002/119 "2008-10-30T19:29:10Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > [This one](http://www.politifact.com/media/img/graphics/birthCertObama.jpg). That’s not his birth certificate. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2008, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-smell-the-smelly-smell-of-desperation-obama-not-a-citizen/468002/120 "2008-10-30T19:37:04Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > That’s not his birth certificate. Well, strictly speaking, it’s a JPEG image of a reproduction of his birth certificate. But, y’know, you can’t put an actual birth certificate on a website, cuz the paper molecules won’t fit through the cable. Or are you referencing the silly rumors about the document represented in the image being a forgery? As [PolitiFact](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2008/jun/27/obamas-birth-certificate-part-ii/) related (see the link for links to the documents mentioned): > [@](#): > > Sen. Barack Obama’s birth certificate is a document [PolitiFact.com](http://PolitiFact.com) had sought for months. Countless chain e-mails, seeking to paint him as a secret Muslim, speculated that his full name included Muhammed (or Mohammed). Some said he is not an American citizen. > > As a fact-checking news Web site, we went to extensive lengths to sort out the truth. We got a copy of his 1992 marriage certificate from the Cook County (Ill.) Bureau of Vital Statistics. His driver’s license record from the Illinois Secretary of State’s office. His registration and disciplinary record with the Attorney Registration & Disciplinary Commission of the Supreme Court of Illinois. Not to mention all of his property records. > > Not one of these documents shows a Muhammed (or Mohammed) in Obama’s name. They all read “Barack H. Obama” or “Barack Hussein Obama.” > > The ultimate document we sought was Obama’s birth certificate. Unlike the other documents, Hawaii birth certificates aren’t public record. Only family members can request copies, so when the campaign declined to give us one, we were stalled. > > On June 13, 2008, Obama’s campaign finally released a copy, while launching a fact-check Web site of its own, [Fightthesmears.com](http://Fightthesmears.com). The site is a direct response to allegations about Obama that won’t go away: He’s Muslim. He took the oath of office on a Koran. He refuses to say the Pledge of Allegiance. PolitiFact has researched all of these accusations and none of them are true. > > When the birth certificate arrived from the Obama campaign it confirmed his name as the other documents already showed it. Still, we took an extra step: We e-mailed it to the Hawaii Department of Health, which maintains such records, to ask if it was real. > > “It’s a valid Hawaii state birth certificate,” spokesman Janice Okubo told us. > > Then the firestorm started. > > • Where is the embossed seal and the registrar’s signature? > > • Comparing it to other Hawaii birth certificates, the color shade is different. > > • Isn’t the date stamp bleeding through the back of the document “June 2007?” (Odd since it was supposedly released in June 2008.) > > • There’s no crease from being folded and mailed. > > • It’s clearly Photoshopped and a wholesale fraud. > • • • > At [PolitiFact.com](http://PolitiFact.com), we’re all about original sources. We don’t take anyone at their word or take the reporting of other media organizations as proof. We go to the heart of the story, the source of the truth — original, corroborating documents. > > When the official documents were questioned, we went looking for more answers. We circled back to the Department of Health, had a newsroom colleague bring in her own Hawaii birth certificate to see if it looks the same (it’s identical). But every answer triggered more questions. > > And soon enough, after going to every length possible to confirm the birth certificate’s authenticity, you start asking, what is reasonable here? > > Because if this document is forged, then they all are. > > If this document is forged, a U.S. senator and his presidential campaign have perpetrated a vast, long-term fraud. They have done it with conspiring officials at the Hawaii Department of Health, the Cook County (Ill.) Bureau of Vital Statistics, the Illinois Secretary of State’s office, the Attorney Registration & Disciplinary Commission of the Supreme Court of Illinois and many other government agencies. […] > > The Hawaii Department of Health receives about a dozen e-mail inquiries a day about Obama’s birth certificate, spokesman Okubo said. > > “I guess the big issue that’s being raised is the lack of an embossed seal and a signature,” Okubo said, pointing out that in Hawaii, both those things are on the back of the document. “Because they scanned the front … you wouldn’t see those things.” > > Okubo says she got a copy of her own birth certificate last year and it is identical to the Obama one we received. > > And about the copy we e-mailed her for verification? “When we looked at that image you guys sent us, our registrar, he thought he could see pieces of the embossed image through it.” > > Still, she acknowledges: “I don’t know that it’s possible for us to even say beyond a doubt what the image on the site represents.” > • • • > And there’s the rub. It is possible that Obama conspired his way to the precipice of the world’s biggest job, involving a vast network of people and government agencies over decades of lies. Anything’s possible. > > But step back and look at the overwhelming evidence to the contrary and your sense of what’s reasonable has to take over. > > There is not one shred of evidence to disprove PolitiFact’s conclusion that the candidate’s name is Barack Hussein Obama, or to support allegations that the birth certificate he released isn’t authentic. > > And that’s true no matter how many people cling to some hint of doubt and use the Internet to fuel their innate sense of distrust. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-smell-the-smelly-smell-of-desperation-obama-not-a-citizen/468002.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-smell-the-smelly-smell-of-desperation-obama-not-a-citizen/468002.md?page=7)