# I solved the gun control problem. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 20, 2018, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-solved-the-gun-control-problem/809181 "2018-02-20T08:05:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-solved-the-gun-control-problem/809181/81 "2018-02-20T19:14:10Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The right of the people, as represented by their duly-established armed forces, to have weapons for the purposes of those armed forces is guaranteed. Glad we agree. We don’t. The right of the people, not the right of the armed forces - you already cited that the FF thought of the militias as distinct from the army. That’s why it says “people”, not their representatives - the people themselves. > [@](#): > > The fact that the rationale for Heller was invented, not found in the Constitution. So the Supreme Court inventing a rationale means that their decision is incorrect - is that right? It has to appear in the Constitution itself, or else it is not legitimate. (Not that it matters - the RtKaBA really does appear in the Constitution in so many words, but I would like to get a clear statement of the principle.) So your position is: A Supreme Court decision that mentions a rationale not explicitly in the Constitution is invalid and illegitimate. Got it. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-solved-the-gun-control-problem/809181/82 "2018-02-20T19:19:52Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > … So your position is: A Supreme Court decision that mentions a rationale not explicitly in the Constitution is invalid and illegitimate. Got it. > > Regards, > Shodan I would not expect any consistency from him on that. As soon as it becomes inconvenient, he will invent his own rationale for abandoning it. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-solved-the-gun-control-problem/809181/83 "2018-02-20T19:21:12Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The only people I know of who want to snatch guns away from their owners are criminals who break into peoples’ houses to steal guns. And they’re pro-gun, too, because it means there’s something in houses of value that they can steal. You might want to look around a bit more. There are people right here on this board that advocate taking guns away from their owners. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-solved-the-gun-control-problem/809181/84 "2018-02-20T19:28:20Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > We don’t. The right of the people, not the right of the armed forces - you already cited that the FF thought of the militias as distinct from the army. No, not when they wrote the amendment. They did change their minds about a standing army very soon afterward, but still afterward. Then the military role became theirs, not the militias’. The militias are now the National Guard and have been for over a century, btw, not just any bunch of yahoos with a grievance against Da Gummint. Do please try to be consistent with the historical record. > [@](#): > > So the Supreme Court inventing a rationale means that their decision is incorrect - is that right? It’s authoritative but still wrongly decided, yes. This may be a shock, but there’s a reason they themselves say “We’re not last because we’re right, we’re right because we’re last”. Sometimes they even admit it and change their minds! If you had some rationale to support the ruling as intellectually legitimate, you’d certainly have provided it here instead of spluttering, wouldn’t you? ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-solved-the-gun-control-problem/809181/85 "2018-02-20T19:33:55Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I know those sort of people too. I know SWAT guys too. Did you know there’s a good bit of overlap between those two groups? > > In other words, what makes you think the SWAT teams will be on the side of the gun-grabbers? The SWAT people I know would be on the gun owner’s side. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-solved-the-gun-control-problem/809181/86 "2018-02-20T19:35:26Z")
> [@control-z](#): > > The SWAT people I know would be on the gun owner’s side. And they wouldn’t be the only ones. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-solved-the-gun-control-problem/809181/87 "2018-02-20T19:46:19Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I don’t care. It’s going to continue to get used to describe supporters of various gun control schemes with far greater frequency than Chronos’ bass-ackwards usage regardless of your personal feelings on the matter. Well, I don’t worry much about my feelings when people are getting mowed down with weapons of mass slaughter. But I’ll let you consider what you’ve just said about yourself: you don’t care if the people on your side of the issue are extremely dishonest. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-solved-the-gun-control-problem/809181/88 "2018-02-20T19:53:30Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > If it makes you feel any better, I generally try to reserve usage of the term for people who really are advocating taking guns away, not just infringing on future transactions. Well, goody goody for you. ‘I’m honest, but I like hanging around with liars.’ Here’s your cookie. > [@](#): > > ETA: which apparently accurately describes you Well yeah, now it does. But it didn’t before this past week, yet I was called a ‘gun grabber’ more times than I can remember. This has been my ‘fuck it’ moment. If I’m gonna be called a gun grabber no matter what sort of minimal gun control measures I propose, then fuck it, I’ll support literally grabbing guns. Like I said: what are your friends gonna say about me now, for actually wanting to grab guns, that’s any worse than when I just wanted a few commonsense restrictions on future sales? Nyaah, nyaah! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-solved-the-gun-control-problem/809181/89 "2018-02-20T19:56:53Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The right of the people, as represented by their duly-established armed forces, to have weapons for the purposes of those armed forces is guaranteed. Glad we agree. It’s an interesting point. If, say, the Amendment had spelled out that, _a well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of that Militia to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed_ — well, then, I’d have a hard time disagreeing with you. But, of course, that’s not how it was written. Why do you think that is? ---
**Author:** ![AgingLiberalD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2bfe46/32.png) [@AgingLiberalD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AgingLiberalD)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-solved-the-gun-control-problem/809181/90 "2018-02-20T20:00:55Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > That’s enough of that. > > AgingLiberalD, we pride ourselves on being able to debate without making ad hominems or other forms of personal attack. If you feel you must, please do so in the BBQ Pit. That’s what it’s there for. Apologies. Won’t happen again. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-solved-the-gun-control-problem/809181/91 "2018-02-20T20:03:08Z")
> [@Mdcastle](#): > > Because we already tried to find middle ground by exempting people that are not in the business of selling firearms from having to do background checks in exchange for requiring them from dealers. Any “middle ground” immediately gets thrown back into our face as a “loophole” that needs to be closed. With that kind of bad faith how are we going to trust that the next "reasonable restriction is going to be the end of it and that there won’t be no end to the cycle until we’re all defenseless. 1. Ah, the good old slippery slope! 😃 2. So is your problem here that background checks for sales at gun shows would be onerous? Or are you against the notion that there should be background checks at all, but you gun-lovers _tolerate_ background checks by licensed dealers in return for everyone else being exempt? Just trying to understand where you’re coming from. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-solved-the-gun-control-problem/809181/92 "2018-02-20T20:03:56Z")
**Waldo** : Because at the time \*every \*adult (white) male was subject to (temporary) conscription in his state’s militia, and was allowed or even expected to provide his own weapon. That too became moot with the establishment of the standing army and navy. It’s illuminative, or should be, to look at the proto-Constitution that was actually in effect at the time, and most certainly would have influenced the thoughts of the people living under it, isn’t it? Here’s a fuller explanation from the Articles of Confederation: > [@](#): > > No vessel of war shall be kept up in time of peace by any State, except such number only, as shall be deemed necessary by the United States in Congress assembled, for the defense of such State, or its trade; nor shall any body of forces be kept up by any State in time of peace, except such number only, as in the judgement of the United States in Congress assembled, shall be deemed requisite to garrison the forts necessary for the defense of such State; but every State shall always keep up a well-regulated and disciplined militia, sufficiently armed and accoutered, and shall provide and constantly have ready for use, in public stores, a due number of filed pieces and tents, and a proper quantity of arms, ammunition and camp equipage. The intention there seems clear enough. Does it make sense that it wouldn’t have been essentially continued in the new document? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-solved-the-gun-control-problem/809181/93 "2018-02-20T20:07:03Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > … But I’ll let you consider what you’ve just said about yourself: you don’t care if the people on your side of the issue are extremely dishonest. That’s not at all what I just said. I don’t think it’s “extremely dishonest” to call people advocating for gun control “gun grabbers”. It’s a bit imprecise, for some of them, and I try to avoid imprecision, but it’s certainly no more imprecise than your own use of “gun-worshippers”. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-solved-the-gun-control-problem/809181/94 "2018-02-20T20:09:40Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Well, goody goody for you. ‘I’m honest, but I like hanging around with liars.’ Here’s your cookie.Well yeah, now it does. But it didn’t before this past week, yet I was called a ‘gun grabber’ more times than I can remember. … Most of us have been called things that we didn’t like or weren’t accurate. What do you want? A cookie? ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-solved-the-gun-control-problem/809181/95 "2018-02-20T20:10:15Z")
> [@AgingLiberalD](#): > > Now to be fair, I’m fairly certain my idea is not unique, however I feel that it is a fairly good solution for limiting access to firearms while still allowing access to the general public. > > Before I get started, I want to point out that I am not implying that I solved the issue of gun violence. That is a separate debate. Furthermore, my use of the word “solved” in the title was just to get people to read my ideas and debate the merits of them, so don’t be a nit-picker. > > The local and federal government could regulate an industry that maintains structures meant to secure firearms and ammunition. We can call these buildings “armories”. > > At these armories, members of the public could register for a club. For the sake of argument, let’s call these clubs “militias”. > > Members of these militias would be required to undergo background checks and regular therapy as a condition of membership. Another condition of membership is regular and mandatory training. > > All firearms will be stored at the armories at all times. Your idea is weak and stumbling, but it fell flat on its ass with the last sentence. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-solved-the-gun-control-problem/809181/96 "2018-02-20T20:20:36Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Most of us have been called things that we didn’t like or weren’t accurate. What do you want? A cookie? Now _there’s_ a way to show good faith. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-solved-the-gun-control-problem/809181/97 "2018-02-20T20:21:02Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Most of us have been called things that we didn’t like or weren’t accurate. What do you want? A cookie? No, but one place that that term has been thrown around aplenty is right here at the Dope, where we believe in fighting ignorance, not adding to the stockpile. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-solved-the-gun-control-problem/809181/98 "2018-02-20T20:22:27Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I don’t think it’s “extremely dishonest” to call people advocating for gun control “gun grabbers”. It’s a bit imprecise Well, okay, then. I’ll just step aside while you self-own some more. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-solved-the-gun-control-problem/809181/99 "2018-02-20T20:27:57Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Well, okay, then. > > I’ll just step aside while you self-own some more. 🙂 Seems like a bit of disingenuous quote trimming. You couldn’t even quote the whole sentence? You had to snip it partway through? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2018, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-solved-the-gun-control-problem/809181/100 "2018-02-20T20:28:59Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > No, but one place that that term has been thrown around aplenty is right here at the Dope, where we believe in fighting ignorance, not adding to the stockpile. Which one were you doing with “gun-worshippers”? Fighting? Or adding to the stockpile? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-solved-the-gun-control-problem/809181.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-solved-the-gun-control-problem/809181.md?page=6)