# I Steadfastly Reject This Sudden Rush to Redefine "Thug" as a Racial Slur **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 1, 2015, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959 "2015-05-01T03:04:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/201 "2015-05-03T04:10:41Z")
No one is saying Thug is solely just a synonym for the N word. The point is, it is becoming the “safe” way of saying the N word for several. The argument that we are wrong because not everyone is saying it in that context is pedantic. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/202 "2015-05-03T04:12:08Z")
::shrugs:: If calling blacks _hoodlums_ and whites _thugs_ is commendable, then sign me up. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/203 "2015-05-03T04:18:12Z")
Of course that’s a classic case of missing the point. But still, it is commendable to make the effort to monitor the effects of one’s language and to change it accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/204 "2015-05-03T04:21:54Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Of course that’s a classic case of missing the point. But still, it is commendable to make the effort to monitor the effects of one’s language and to change it accordingly. Hey, I’d follow your lead in calling them _Very Inappropriately Violent People_ if it weren’t so clunky. (Though on reflection, I could probably get the hang of that.) But, coming back around, how is the point missed? I’m not being facetious; isn’t that hoodlum/thug divide exactly what you proposed? ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/205 "2015-05-03T04:28:39Z")
The problem I have with turning, once excepted words, into taboo words is that I have a hard time keeping up with what the pc thing to say. I almost called a black child “boy” the other day. Then I remembered that some assholes ruined it by making it a racial thing. Bill O’Reilly’s used words like “thug” for a white person once, if memory serves me correctly. I laughed because only old man would use a word like that to describe someone. I can see where people might hear the n-word when someone like him says it to/or at a black person though. However I feel like if they, (the people who use it in place of the n-word) replace “thug” with any other word, I would still hear the n-word I think. Being hypersensitive about this type of thing gives a lot of racists a reason to believe that their racism is justified. “What!? We can’t call certain black people ‘thug’ anymore!?” ---
**Author:** ![Teach-me-not](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a4c791/32.png) [@Teach-me-not](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Teach-me-not)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/206 "2015-05-03T04:33:45Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Hey, I’d follow your lead in calling them _Very Inappropriately Violent People_ if it weren’t so clunky. (Though on reflection, I could probably get the hang of that.) > > But, coming back around, how is the point missed? I’m not being facetious; isn’t that hoodlum/thug divide exactly what you proposed? I think once a word has been put to racist usage, using it also in a general, non racist sense becomes an iffy proposition at best. There will always be people who suspect whether a particular speaker uses it in a racist sense or nonracist sense (and for good reason). Some people will want to reclaim the word, some will see it as permanently tainted. All of these positions are rational and reasonable. If we must blame someone for losing a perfectly good word to PC, it must be the racist speakers who are constantly looking for creative ways to say “one of _them_” IMHO. ETA: I haven’t decided whether there’s a racist connotation to the word “thug” or not. My gut feeling says there is. My comment above is a general one. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/207 "2015-05-03T04:43:45Z")
> [@Teach-me-not](#): > > I think once a word has been put to racist usage, using it also in a general, non racist sense becomes an iffy proposition at best. There will always be people who suspect whether a particular speaker uses it in a racist sense or nonracist sense (and for good reason). Some people will want to reclaim the word, some will see it as permanently tainted. All of these positions are rational and reasonable. See, I was just guiding off what he’d said about how there’s generally “no problem” with calling a white guy something that’s off-limits for a black man. (I mean, he _just got through saying it,_ for crying out loud.) But if the takeaway is that it’s now offensive to refer to Very Inappropriately Violent Black People as thugs, but it’s iffy to do so for Very Inappropriately Violent White People, but it’s commendable to refer to both of them as hoodlums, then, okay, hoodlums ahoy. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/208 "2015-05-03T04:46:01Z")
> [@Teach-me-not](#): > > I think once a word has been put to racist usage, using it also in a general, non racist sense becomes an iffy proposition at best. There will always be people who suspect whether a particular speaker uses it in a racist sense or nonracist sense (and for good reason). Some people will want to reclaim the word, some will see it as permanently tainted. All of these positions are rational and reasonable. I hope you also understand that the position that considers the whole “thug” brouhaha silly verging on stupid promoted by people seeking victimhood is also rational and reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/209 "2015-05-03T04:48:47Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > If the person happens to be black, it might not be “you being racist” but it very likely is you saying something racist. > > Racism isn’t about intent only, it is also about effects. A person can be completely free of an intent to disparage based on race, yet do things which disparage based on race. This is because words have both speakers and hearers–and actions have both doers and recipients. But if I consistently call people, both black and white, who do thuggish things, “thugs”, and I consistently do not call people, both black and white, who do not do thuggish things “thugs”, then how have I disparaged based on race? Won’t my hearers say, “Well, Captain Amazing regularly uses the term ‘thug’ regardless of race, so his calling that individual black person a ‘thug’ isn’t racially disparaging in that context, just disparaging on a personal level.” ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/210 "2015-05-03T04:55:40Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > But if I consistently call people, both black and white, who do thuggish things, “thugs”, and I consistently do not call people, both black and white, who do not do thuggish things “thugs”, then how have I disparaged based on race? Won’t my hearers say, “Well, Captain Amazing regularly uses the term ‘thug’ regardless of race, so his calling that individual black person a ‘thug’ isn’t racially disparaging in that context, just disparaging on a personal level.” Sure. But are the people you’re talking with, day to day, provided with a longform record of every instance of Captain Amazing using the word thug that would demonstrate such consistency ? Hell, we _have_ extensive records of what you’ve said or not here on this MB, and I have no idea. I guess the salient question is, on the \*a priori \*assumption that you’re no racist : do you care to use that particular word so bad, you’re OK with risking your interlocutors making the assumption that you might just be ? Because that’s all that is at stake here. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/211 "2015-05-03T04:56:42Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > But if I consistently call people, both black and white, who do thuggish things, “thugs”, and I consistently do not call people, both black and white, who do not do thuggish things “thugs”, then how have I disparaged based on race? Won’t my hearers say, “Well, Captain Amazing regularly uses the term ‘thug’ regardless of race, so his calling that individual black person a ‘thug’ isn’t racially disparaging in that context, just disparaging on a personal level.” You know what? Concepts like this are hard to wrap your head around. But at the end of the day if something is perceived as racist it is probably best to avoid using it. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/212 "2015-05-03T05:20:02Z")
> [@MyFootsZZZ](#): > > The problem I have with turning, once excepted words, into taboo words is that I have a hard time keeping up with what the pc thing to say. > > I almost called a black child “boy” the other day. Then I remembered that some assholes ruined it by making it a racial thing. > > Bill O’Reilly’s used words like “thug” for a white person once, if memory serves me correctly. I laughed because only old man would use a word like that to describe someone. > > I can see where people might hear the n-word when someone like him says it to/or at a black person though. However I feel like if they, (the people who use it in place of the n-word) replace “thug” with any other word, I would still hear the n-word I think. Being hypersensitive about this type of thing gives a lot of racists a reason to believe that their racism is justified. > > “What!? We can’t call certain black people ‘thug’ anymore!?” You make some good points but it is the nature of the society we live in today. Overall, it is for the better. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/213 "2015-05-03T05:28:16Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > So the customer was calling your ex an n-word? > > (And, just to clarify the issue, which side do you believe, is the “anti-thug” crowd?) No, “ma’am” in that instance was just code speak for “Bitch”. And “Anti-thug” crowd would be those suggesting we shouldn’t use that word any more. ---
**Author:** ![Waymore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/214 "2015-05-03T05:37:15Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I doubt that. I doubt that very many black people have any confusion about what Hannity means when he says “thug”. Only white people seem to doubt this. Everybody who disagrees with you is racist, copy. > [@Robert163](#): > > I guess because when someone like Hannity uses it it is particularly crass in addition to being simultaneously smug as well as cowardly. To see people deny that that is how Hannity uses the term is almost as offensive. So, aside from the unpardonable sin of being on FNC, how do you know what Hannity _really_ means? You seem very interested in the man, so I’m sure you can fill in the holes in my knowledge. > [@Robert163](#): > > I doubt that. I doubt that very many black people have any confusion about what Hannity means when he says “thug”. Only white people seem to doubt this. For example, it’s only white people who object to the term white privilege. That logic cuts both ways. It pays to be a victim in modern America. Unless you mean to imply only white people are self serving in the way they parse language, but that would be ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![planetcory](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/planetcory/32/1032_2.png) [@planetcory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/planetcory)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/215 "2015-05-03T06:13:44Z")
The issue is that ‘thug’ is being assigned to young black men for behavior that isn’t criminal. Black men who aren’t sufficiently docile. Black men who assert ourselves in anyway. Or maybe wear our baseball hats at a jaunty angle. Uppity. Maybe even jerks. We get branded with criminality. The problem isn’t with calling thugs thugs. It’s with calling my nephew a thug because you don’t approve of how his pants fit. The words change, but the sentiment remains. Today’s thugs are yesterday’s spooks. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/216 "2015-05-03T06:16:09Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Sure. But are the people you’re talking with, day to day, provided with a longform record of every instance of Captain Amazing using the word thug that would demonstrate such consistency ? Hell, we _have_ extensive records of what you’ve said or not here on this MB, and I have no idea. > > I guess the salient question is, on the \*a priori \*assumption that you’re no racist : do you care to use that particular word so bad, you’re OK with risking your interlocutors making the assumption that you might just be ? Because that’s all that is at stake here. I’d say those people making an assumption about me based on a single word that I use are pretty much on par with the racists they are so upset about. There is no one who deserves to be called a nigger, but there are people who deserve to be called thugs. If someone finds me calling someone a thug who isn’t actually acting like a thug, then we can talk. Until then, I dream of the day when we judge people by the content of their character, not by their willingness to only use words approved by the PC Police. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/217 "2015-05-03T08:27:13Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’d say those people making an assumption about me based on a single word that I use are pretty much on par with the racists they are so upset about. There is no one who deserves to be called a nigger, but there are people who deserve to be called thugs. If someone finds me calling someone a thug who isn’t actually acting like a thug, then we can talk. Until then, I dream of the day when we judge people by the content of their character, not by their willingness to only use words approved by the PC Police. All right, let’s have a hypothetical : you and I are observing a young, black male that happens to be behaving in a thug-like fashion (whatthefuckever that may mean). And you call him a thug. If we assume that I am not a mind reader, how am\* I \*supposed to know, without the shadow of a doubt, that you are prompted to use the word strictly and specifically because of said thuggish behaviour, or because he happens to be a young black male, or a little bit of both ? I can’t. So unless I’ve known you for a long time and feel like I have a pretty good sense of what you’re about, I’m going to raise an inquisitive eyebrow at you. I’m not going to assume then and there, based on that one ambiguous use of a word, that you’re a racist… but I am going to be watching you more closely for indications of such. Whereas you _could_ just call him an asshole and dispel any ambiguity. So why not just do that instead ? ---
**Author:** ![Waymore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/218 "2015-05-03T08:53:21Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > All right, let’s have a hypothetical : you and I are observing a young, black male that happens to be behaving in a thug-like fashion (whatthefuckever that may mean). And you call him a thug. If we assume that I am not a mind reader, how am\* I \*supposed to know, without the shadow of a doubt, that you are prompted to use the word strictly and specifically because of said thuggish behaviour, or because he happens to be a young black male, or a little bit of both ? > > I can’t. So unless I’ve known you for a long time and feel like I have a pretty good sense of what you’re about, I’m going to raise an inquisitive eyebrow at you. I’m not going to assume then and there, based on that one ambiguous use of a word, that you’re a racist… but I am going to be watching you more closely for indications of such. > > Whereas you _could_ just call him an asshole and dispel any ambiguity. So why not just do that instead ? Because I’m not a mind reader and I don’t know how you’ll take what I say. Why would your default assumption be something negative, especially - per your example - we both agree that the young black man’s behavior is thuggish? Furthermore, very non-hypothetically, I don’t care how a person would take what I say. If you only speak in ways you assume other people approve, you’ll end up not saying a lot of things that need to be said. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/219 "2015-05-03T09:34:18Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Then you’re admitting to being a racist. Black people tell you the word is offensive to them. You don’t get to tell them that they are wrong. There are black people who think “black hole” is offensive too. These people are stupid. “Thug” is not racist just because a certain subset of the black community chooses to align themselves with the robbers and drug dealers that prey upon them. ---
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/220 "2015-05-03T11:22:55Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I always associated thug more with white criminals. Muggers, bullies, and so on. Often tattooed, bald and very,very big! Like a bouncer at a bar. They are often thugs. Ditto. Which is probably reverse racism or something. But yeah…and I heard newscasters referring to “the T word”, which made me yell, “Oh, fer f-word’s sake!” Are we all first-graders now? “Mommy won’t let me say the t-word!” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959.md?page=12)