# I Steadfastly Reject This Sudden Rush to Redefine "Thug" as a Racial Slur **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 1, 2015, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959 "2015-05-01T03:04:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/221 "2015-05-03T11:25:13Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > so when some conservative talk show host says the word “thug” when referring to young African American males they are not trying to be racist and derogatory? I don’t think they’re trying, and I don’t think it’s the word that’s doing the job. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/222 "2015-05-03T11:32:58Z")
> [@GrumpyBunny](#): > > I don’t think they’re trying, and I don’t think it’s the word that’s doing the job. Wait, you don’t think Hannity, O Rielly, Limbaugh, etc, would use racist and derogatory language? ---
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/223 "2015-05-03T11:33:45Z")
> [@planetcory](#): > > The problem isn’t with calling thugs thugs. It’s with calling my nephew a thug because you don’t approve of how his pants fit. The words change, but the sentiment remains. Today’s thugs are yesterday’s spooks. So, I assume that I can call my idiot brother a thug for actually behaving in a thuglike manner (and for also being a paranoid redneck idiot conspiracy theorist)? Can I also use the word to refer to an actual criminal, regardless of any color or background? And on the flip side, I should refrain from using the term to refer to young men of any race or color who are dressed or listening to music that is associated with a subculture that’s not in step with standard American cultures? Such as baggy jeans, or a mohawk and leathers? I’m not being snarky here (for once). We should have rules! > [@](#): > > **MyFootsZZZ** > > I almost called a black child “boy” the other day Yeah, I’ve almost stuck my foot in my mouth on that, too. As in, “Your boy is getting so big!” I might be hypersensitive (comes with being a liberal white southerner), but it didn’t feel right to say that to a black friend, even though we’ve joked a bit about race in the past. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/224 "2015-05-03T11:42:02Z")
> [@Waymore](#): > > Because I’m not a mind reader and I don’t know how you’ll take what I say. Which surely should make you _all the more_ circumspect about what you choose to say and how you choose to express yourself ? > [@](#): > > Why would your default assumption be something negative, My default assumption is that you’re probably a decent bloke - but _you_ slightly amended that assumption by opting to use a (possibly) loaded word of your own free will. > [@](#): > > especially - per your example - we both agree that the young black man’s behavior is thuggish? We haven’t agreed on shit - I specifically added “whatever that means” because what is or isn’t considered thuggish behaviour isn’t exactly set in stone, and might not be assessed the same by both parties. You (hypothetical you) might believe “talks at the movies” is thug behaviour for all I know. It’s not really relevant to the point I’m trying to make, though. > [@](#): > > Furthermore, very non-hypothetically, I don’t care how a person would take what I say. Congratulations on being antisocial, I guess ? > [@](#): > > If you only speak in ways you assume other people approve, you’ll end up not saying a lot of things that need to be said. You’re missing the point. I’m saying that, far from making your meaning clear, using such ambiguous words muddles communication. It’s not about “speaking in ways you assume other people approve” or disapprove, it’s about clearly and concisely conveying your thoughts in such a way that your interlocutor will understand them, or rather not misunderstand them. You know exactly what you mean, feel, think, believe - but \*he \*doesn’t. As I said, if the observed person is doing something you disapprove of, and you feel that this disapproval is something that “needs to be said”, you have a nigh-infinite vocabulary at your disposal to say so without any racial ambiguity getting in the mix. So why pick the (possible) dog whistle ? And if you do opt to use that one specific word, out of the hundreds of equivalent words you could have used in its place, why on Earth would I _not_ wonder whether you did so for less than honorable reasons ? ---
**Author:** ![Sahirrnee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sahirrnee/32/13937_2.png) [@Sahirrnee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sahirrnee)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/225 "2015-05-03T11:50:46Z")
So, if I am understanding this argument correctly When some people hear the word ‘thug’ their mind instantly leaps to black, however those of us whose minds don’t make that leap are the racist ones. Got it! ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/226 "2015-05-03T11:55:01Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > ::shrugs:: > > If calling blacks _hoodlums_ and whites _thugs_ is commendable, then sign me up. Hoodlums has the word hood in it. I predict a very short half life for that particular usage. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/227 "2015-05-03T12:07:32Z")
> [@GrumpyBunny](#): > > And on the flip side, I should refrain from using the term to refer to young men of any race or color who are dressed or listening to music that is associated with a subculture that’s not in step with standard American cultures? Such as baggy jeans, or a mohawk and leathers? Rap music has had a negative impact upon African American culture but it has also had benefits as well. The point I really want to make is it is no more appropriate to call a young person who listens to rap a thug than it would be to call a young person who listens to AC/DC a satanist. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/228 "2015-05-03T12:10:18Z")
Just to add another data point; I think this must be a American-English thing, as the word thug has no implication of race to me, a Brit, at all. It implies “male”, that’s about it. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/229 "2015-05-03T12:13:19Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Sounds like they are not so “freakishly brilliant”, at least when it comes to linguistics. No, because it’s context, not intelligence, that defines what a word “really” means–and in an urban public school that is 80% minority, “thug” is a tough poor black kid. It’s what the word means here. It’s what my kids would hear. Referring to someone as a “Yankee” here in TX it means something different than calling someone a “Yankee” in the UK. Which is the “real” definition? Who is being “ignorant”? ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/230 "2015-05-03T12:15:09Z")
It’s a British word, albeit a corruption of an Indian one. If you lot over the pond want to borrow our language free of charge we expect you to retain our definitions and usage. Or we’ll have to to charging you. “No misrepresentation without taxation” Anyway, I’m going outside to smoke a fag. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/231 "2015-05-03T12:26:09Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Yes. It is so much more “mature” to post cryptic comments that have no genuine meaning in regard to a one-off comment. > I made no observation on how racism works. That is just something baselessly inserted into the conversation to make one pretend to be superior. > One may imagine whatever one wishes, (particularly when it is grounded in nothing more than one’s imagination with no connection to reality). My post wasn’t cryptic at all. You have a naive view of racism, that you express again in the rest of this post. You suggest that because a person is black, it means they aren’t likely to be doing something racist or harbor racial biases. Four hundred years of white supremacist history and its consequences for our politics, economics, and culture poison how everyone thinks about race. Black people are subject to those factors in forming biases too, which is why implicit bias tests show anti-black bias among black people. Black politicians benefit from dynamics created for racial ends and use racial rhetoric for political advantage like white politicians do, for example. And there’s no need to cast aspersions on my motivations for correcting you. It is possible to address just the contents of posts you disagree with. (Accidentally posted this before I was done, but I guess this will do.) ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/232 "2015-05-03T13:07:25Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Which surely should make you _all the more_ circumspect about what you choose to say and how you choose to express yourself ? It should make you more circumspect about not making unfounded assumptions. Unless you are making those assumptions for reasons other than a desire to understand. In which case, knock yourself out - the chip is on your shoulder, not mine. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/233 "2015-05-03T13:14:45Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It should make you more circumspect about not making unfounded assumptions. > > Unless you are making those assumptions for reasons other than a desire to understand. In which case, knock yourself out - the chip is on your shoulder, not mine. > > Regards, > Shodan If you read it on paper with no other indicators for or against racist connotations it would probably be presumptuous to assume assume thug was code for racist. If it was stated verbally with condescension or bad attitude, it’s probably safe to assume it was racist. If it was stated verbally with condescension or bad attitude by someone who makes their living by shocking and offending people, then it would be unreasonable NOT to assume it had racial connotations. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/234 "2015-05-03T13:22:54Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It should make you more circumspect about not making unfounded assumptions. Wondering why exactly you made a specific lexical choice is not “making assumptions”. It’s the exact opposite of making an assumption. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/235 "2015-05-03T13:24:35Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It should make you more circumspect about not making unfounded assumptions. Once more with feeling. The issue is _not necessarily about_ what the speaker is thinking or what character the speaker has. The issue _is_ about the effects of the use of the word. In order for this usage to be call-outable as racist, it is _not necessary_ to assume the person saying “thug” thinks in a racist fashion. It _is only_ necessary to understand what the effects of the use of the word are. The discussion in some cases _can_ be about the thoughts of the speaker, but do not have to be, and often aren’t. You should not assume it is without further indicators. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/236 "2015-05-03T13:25:46Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Wondering why exactly you made a specific lexical choice is not “making assumptions”. It’s the exact opposite of making an assumption. And that sounds just like the liberal version of the conservatives “just asking questions” gambit. Your not wondering for wonderings sake. Your racist radar is pinging. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/237 "2015-05-03T13:29:02Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Once more with feeling. The issue is _not necessarily about_ what the speaker is thinking or what character the speaker has. The issue _is_ about the effects of the use of the word. In order for this usage to be call-outable as racist, it is _not necessary_ to assume the person saying “thug” thinks in a racist fashion. It _is only_ necessary to understand what the effects of the use of the word are. > > The discussion in some cases _can_ be about the thoughts of the speaker, but do not have to be, and often aren’t. You should not assume it is without further indicators. Agreed. And to think that someone with a nationally recognized radio show, talk show (TV), Blog, etc, is not aware of the possible/probable meanings to various words is doubtful. These people make their living interacting with the public. For an average citizen I would say that they could mistakenly use the term. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/238 "2015-05-03T13:31:09Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > And that sounds just like the liberal version of the conservatives “just asking questions” gambit. > > Your not wondering for wonderings sake. Your racist radar is pinging. It is, but it’s not locked on yet :). It’s searching for further confirmation, one way or the other. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/239 "2015-05-03T13:31:10Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > And that sounds just like the liberal version of the conservatives “just asking questions” gambit. > > Your not wondering for wonderings sake. Your racist radar is pinging. wow you know it depends a lot upon: 1- Who said it (their past record of public statements) 2- How they say it, attitude, body language, vocal emphasis, etc ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/240 "2015-05-03T14:02:46Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > No, because it’s context, not intelligence, that defines what a word “really” means–and in an urban public school that is 80% minority, “thug” is a tough poor black kid. It’s what the word means here. It’s what my kids would hear. > > Referring to someone as a “Yankee” here in TX it means something different than calling someone a “Yankee” in the UK. Which is the “real” definition? Who is being “ignorant”? I teach in a predominantly black and poor district. My kids seldom use the word thug at all. The few times I’ve heard them use it, it was as part of the phrase “thug life” and they were using that phrase jokingly. So, my poor, urban, black kids don’t give the word as much emotional weight as yours do. I don’t think we can draw too many conclusions based on the kids when the kids don’t have a uniform opinion themselves. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959.md?page=13)