# I Steadfastly Reject This Sudden Rush to Redefine "Thug" as a Racial Slur **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 1, 2015, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959 "2015-05-01T03:04:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/261 "2015-05-03T15:51:20Z")
What’s wrong with “nor”. I is that now racist, so we have to use “or”? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/262 "2015-05-03T15:54:19Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > What’s wrong with “nor”. I is that now racist, so we have to use “or”? 😉 What? Lets be clear. If Sean Hannity (or someone like him) makes the statement: “Jay Z and his entourage of thugs” are you going to object if I or someone else calls him out for using coded (racist) language? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/263 "2015-05-03T16:00:48Z")
It’s amazing how fully half of the people participating in this thread don’t seem to have actually read the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/264 "2015-05-03T16:02:37Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > What? > > Lets be clear. If Sean Hannity (or someone like him) makes the statement: “Jay Z and his entourage of thugs” are you going to object if I or someone else calls him out for using coded (racist) language? I’m not that familiar with Jay Z. Does he actually have an entourage of thugs? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/265 "2015-05-03T16:04:07Z")
Steve Urkel was a popular character played by Jaleel White on the sitcom _Family Matters_ (1989-1998). For a while, he had his own—real—breakfast cereal—Urkel-Os. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/266 "2015-05-03T16:06:52Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I’m not that familiar with Jay Z. Does he actually have an entourage of thugs? He is a rapper (probably the most popular living rapper) and I don’t really know if he has an entourage. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/267 "2015-05-03T16:52:32Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > He is a rapper (probably the most popular living rapper) and I don’t really know if he has an entourage. So - if he does have an entourage of thugs, is it ok to say that he has an entourage of thugs? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/268 "2015-05-03T16:57:57Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > My post wasn’t cryptic at all. You have a naive view of racism, that you express again in the rest of this post. You suggest that because a person is black, it means they aren’t likely to be doing something racist or harbor racial biases. Of course, it was cryptic. None of this further “explanation” is contained in your earlier post. Beyond that, of course, you have attributed to me views that I have not expressed, so consideration of your motives appears to be appropriate. > [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Four hundred years of white supremacist history and its consequences for our politics, economics, and culture poison how everyone thinks about race. Black people are subject to those factors in forming biases too, which is why implicit bias tests show anti-black bias among black people. Black politicians benefit from dynamics created for racial ends and use racial rhetoric for political advantage like white politicians do, for example. meh You are pretending that one single word, that does not yet have universal racial meaning, indicates that black leaders are buying into racist language. As I noted, had either the president or the mayor employed a term such as “home boy” that is clearly racial in its application, you might have a point. Recent uses of the word thug to identify the actions of white guys: references to Eric Williams, a white man who murdered attorneys in Texas; the gang of university idiots singing racist chants on a bus on Youtube were called thugs. As the result of this particular foofaraw, the word might NOW become a synonym for black youth, but prior to this event, I have seen no evidence presented, here, that it was used solely or even primarily with that meaning. The proposed racial meanings, to this point, have suggested that it is a favorable term in the black community. If that is so, you need to explain why the mayor and president were using it in a disparaging way. Are you suggesting that they were winking at the black youth, playing to the white audience with condemnation while playing to black youth with a message of “we’ve got your back”? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/269 "2015-05-03T17:02:38Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Steve Urkel was a popular character played by Jaleel White on the sitcom _Family Matters_ (1989-1998). For a while, he had his own—real—breakfast cereal—Urkel-Os. However, I am clearly either too young or too culturally oblivious to know who or what an “Erkel” is. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/270 "2015-05-03T17:06:31Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Of course, it was cryptic. None of this further “explanation” is contained in your earlier post. Beyond that, of course, you have attributed to me views that I have not expressed, so consideration of your motives appears to be appropriate. > meh > > You are pretending that one single word, that does not yet have universal racial meaning, indicates that black leaders are buying into racist language. As I noted, had either the president or the mayor employed a term such as “home boy” that is clearly racial in its application, you might have a point. Recent uses of the word thug to identify the actions of white guys: references to Eric Williams, a white man who murdered attorneys in Texas; the gang of university idiots singing racist chants on a bus on Youtube were called thugs. > As the result of this particular foofaraw, the word might NOW become a synonym for black youth, but prior to this event, I have seen no evidence presented, here, that it was used solely or even primarily with that meaning. The proposed racial meanings, to this point, have suggested that it is a favorable term in the black community. If that is so, you need to explain why the mayor and president were using it in a disparaging way. Are you suggesting that they were winking at the black youth, playing to the white audience with condemnation while playing to black youth with a message of “we’ve got your back”? So, in other words, migration of a term towards racist overtones does not exist unless TomnDebb says that it does? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/271 "2015-05-03T17:15:42Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > So, in other words, migration of a term towards racist overtones does not exist unless TomnDebb says that it does? Not even close to what I said. Of course. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/272 "2015-05-03T17:26:21Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Once more with feeling. The issue is _not necessarily about_ what the speaker is thinking or what character the speaker has. Yes - like I said, the chip is not on my shoulder. > [@](#): > > The discussion in some cases can be about the thoughts of the speaker, but do not have to be, and often aren’t. You should not assume it is without further indicators. Then don’t assume “thug” is a racist term unless there are further indicators. “The rioters in Baltimore are thugs”. See? No racist indications at all. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/273 "2015-05-03T17:26:36Z")
> [@andros](#): > > However, I am clearly either too young or too culturally oblivious to know who or what an “Erkel” is. I suppose if I mentioned a famous Mormon named Jon Smithe you’d be clueless as well? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/274 "2015-05-03T17:33:08Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Not even close to what I said. Of course. OK so what is your assessment of the following to situations: 1. Sean Hannity (or someone like him) says "Oh yeah, Jay Z and his entourage of thugs… " 2. A handful of young black men are seen standing on a dimly lit street corner. They look like they are most likely dealing drugs. A person walking by says… “look at those [insert heavy sarcasm] thugs [now back to normal voice] I wonder if they…” ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/275 "2015-05-03T17:35:14Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > . They look like they are most likely dealing drugs. " Your scenario needs a bit of work at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/276 "2015-05-03T17:36:42Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > 1. Sean Hannity (or someone like him) says "Oh yeah, Jay Z and his entourage of thugs… " Yet you admitted that you have no idea whether Jay Z actually has an entourage of thugs. So why would you automatically assume that he doesn’t? Let’s say, for argument’s sake, that Jay Z has an entourage of thugs. Is it ok to say then that he has an entourage of thugs? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/277 "2015-05-03T17:37:17Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Yes - like I said, the chip is not on my shoulder. > Then don’t assume “thug” is a racist term unless there are further indicators. > > “The rioters in Baltimore are thugs”. See? No racist indications at all. > > Regards, > Shodan Oh,please, really? You are playing trap to your own ideological trappings (to use fancy terminology you are acting reflexively to your own ideology). Thug is a word that is in transition. In the most technical terms yes it can be used in a “neutral” manner. But in situations where race is involved it is becoming code. Can you acknowledge this? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/278 "2015-05-03T17:37:49Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Your scenario needs a bit of work at this point. Definitely needs more cowbell. A little dog whistle wouldn’t hurt, either. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/279 "2015-05-03T17:38:20Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Your scenario needs a bit of work at this point. no actually you just need to quit ducking the question ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/280 "2015-05-03T17:39:21Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Definitely needs more cowbell. A little dog whistle wouldn’t hurt, either. LOL, keep digging [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959.md?page=15)