# I Steadfastly Reject This Sudden Rush to Redefine "Thug" as a Racial Slur **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 1, 2015, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959 "2015-05-01T03:04:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/301 "2015-05-03T18:53:18Z")
> [@OldOlds](#): > > Oh, and we all have a responsibility to stay on top of the current list of auto-racist words. I think your sarcasm says more about your true intentions than the lack of sources to document the changing use of this word ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/302 "2015-05-03T18:55:08Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > 2- You should not change to make me happy. You should change because the term has racial overtones which offend black people. All black people? What percentage of black people would you say are offended? Are there polls to support this contention? Do you think those black people are offended when reading [this article](http://bleacherreport.com/articles/897210-nhl-video-50-biggest-thugs-in-hockey-history)? ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/303 "2015-05-03T18:55:23Z")
> [@OldOlds](#): > > … I’ve asked for evidence of previous, widespread use/meaning of thug as a racist term at least three times, and haven’t yet received it. … If you don’t follow the NFL, and or don’t participate in social media, you may have missed the racist overreaction to Richard Sherman’s angry, loud post game interview. Shit, it happens. This ain’t complicated. People do use “thug” in place of “Ni\*\*\*\*”. Yes, it happens. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/304 "2015-05-03T18:55:43Z")
Do you know how much a subscription to Dog Whistle Monthly costs? I’m on a fixed income here. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/305 "2015-05-03T18:57:56Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > We will not tolerate rioting in this city. Such thuggish behavior is unacceptable. > We will not tolerate rioting in this city. Such violent behavior is unacceptable. > Is it really that big a deal to use the second sentence? Using that sentence, you are still accurately describing the situation. Is the second sentence any less accurate? No, it is not any less accurate. And it has the added benefit of avoiding looking like you are trying to sneak the N word in the back door. I bet a lot of people, especially white people, picture a black person when they imagine a violent person. Probably code for racism. Best avoid using it. Well, unless you’re clearly and specifically talking about a white violent person. Then it’s OK. This is why it’s a big deal to go after a word needlessly. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/306 "2015-05-03T18:58:43Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Yes, it’s a big deal for someone to tell me which words I’m allowed to use and which words I am not allowed to use. It would also be big deal if someone were to tell me that wearing red tennis shoes is offensive to some group of people, so why can’t I just wear blue ones instead. What’s the big deal which color shoes one wears-- blue is every bit as good as red, right? > > Free people don’t like being told what to do if we are not harming anyone by our actions. I don’t like it when right-wingers tell me what kind of sex I can have or what kind of drugs I can take, and I don’t like it when left-wingers tell which words I can use. 1- Your example of shoes is a poor example since shoes, unlike words, have no moral connotation 2- It would seem then, that your primary concern is doing what you want to do, even if it using words that are now code for racists. Whereas you may not (though I doubt it) mean anything racist by the term, the fact that others do, and it is now perceived as racist, that does not matter to you. What matters to you is doing what you want to do. Is that more or less correct? ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/307 "2015-05-03T18:59:01Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I think your sarcasm says more about your true intentions than the lack of sources to document the changing use of this word And those intentions would be? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/308 "2015-05-03T19:00:37Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > the fact that others do, and it is now perceived as racist, that does not matter to you. Again, can you show me some polls, preferably scientifically conducted, that would show a widespread perception of racist connotation to the word? Or am I supposed to take your word for it? ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/309 "2015-05-03T19:01:12Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You seem to be tying yourself into knots on this one. First, your “freakishly brilliant” students think the word only refers to young black men. Now they are aware of the full range of the meaning, but instantly assume that only one of those meanings could apply because… well, I can’t quite figure out what your argument is on that one. > > We will not tolerate rioting in this city. Such thuggish behavior is unacceptable. If someone is “freakishly brilliant”, he should be able to make a connection between “rioting” and the meaning of “thug” that connotes criminal behavior. If someone is unable to do that, I would be hard pressed to call them “brilliant”, much less “freakishly brilliant”, although I suppose some meanings of the word “freakish” could be accurate. My point is that you seem to be thinking that your default meaning is the default meaning of intelligent people, and that people that default to the other meaning,\* even in contexts where it would clearly be applicable\*, are so ignorant as to be beneath contempt–you described them as people you wouldn’t bother to even consider in your word choice, because they are so fucking stupid they are incapable of participating in discourse with intelligent chaps such as yourself. My point is that there are plenty of intelligent people–many of whom are, themselves, young and black, who have a very different frame of reference and who would not immediately make the leap that you considered their primary set of connotations so obscure, so fringe, so trivial, that no one with even a room temperature IQ could ever think that you were intending them. I really don’t see how this is any different from an octogenarian referring to black people as “colored” or “negro” in all contexts, and defending that as “it was perfectly polite in my day, I mean it as perfectly polite, and anyone too ignorant to understand that I mean it that way is so ignorant that I don’t give a fuck what they think.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/310 "2015-05-03T19:01:56Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > 1- Your example of shoes is a poor example since shoes, unlike words, have no moral connotation Do you understand the concept of a hypothetical? I posited a situation where some group claimed that red shoes were offensive to them. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/311 "2015-05-03T19:01:57Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Do you know how much a subscription to Dog Whistle Monthly costs? I’m on a fixed income here. Your sarcasm really really really is not making the case that you are not a racist ---
**Author:** ![The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e79b87/32.png) [@The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Joker_and_the_Thief)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/312 "2015-05-03T19:03:04Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Again, can you show me some polls, preferably scientifically conducted, that would show a widespread perception of racist connotation to the word? Or am I supposed to take your word for it? It’s a bit early to ask for polls, since this issue was only substantively raised with the recent riots. So for now we either have to debate the issue qualitatively or choose a course of caution until some data comes out. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/313 "2015-05-03T19:03:10Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I really don’t see how this is any different from an octogenarian referring to black people as “colored” or “negro” in all contexts, and defending that as “it was perfectly polite in my day, I mean it as perfectly polite, and anyone too ignorant to understand that I mean it that way is so ignorant that I don’t give a fuck what they think.” You mean, like NAA **C** P does? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/314 "2015-05-03T19:03:29Z")
> [@andros](#): > > I think it’s foolish to deride someone for ignorance and cluelessness when you do not even know how to spell the character’s name. I’ll also confess to finding the idea that Urkel was remotely as important to African-American history as John Smith is to Mormon history extremely ignorant and frankly racist. And no, I’m not saying he is racist. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/315 "2015-05-03T19:08:04Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Again, can you show me some polls, preferably scientifically conducted, that would show a widespread perception of racist connotation to the word? Or am I supposed to take your word for it? 1- Nobody claims it is widespread 2- If I can find you evidence that the word is starting to take on racist overtones would you agree that it is best to refrain from using it ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/316 "2015-05-03T19:10:33Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Do you understand the concept of a hypothetical? I posited a situation where some group claimed that red shoes were offensive to them. ok, sure, what about: 2- It would seem then, that your primary concern is doing what you want to do, even if it means using words that are now code for racists. Whereas you may not (though I doubt it) mean anything racist by the term, the fact that others do, and it is now perceived as racist, that does not matter to you. What matters to you is doing what you want to do. Is that more or less correct? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/317 "2015-05-03T19:13:01Z")
> [@The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](#): > > It’s a bit early to ask for polls, since this issue was only substantively raised with the recent riots. So for now we either have to debate the issue qualitatively or choose a course of caution until some data comes out. So before the riots was the word not racist or did no one care that it was? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/318 "2015-05-03T19:14:02Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > 1- Nobody claims it is widespread If it is not widespread why should the tiny minority that is supposed to be offended catered to? If I tell you I am mortally offended by the word “widespread” (who knows, maybe I think it is sexist), would you agree to stop using it? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/319 "2015-05-03T19:18:18Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Of course, it was cryptic. None of this further “explanation” is contained in your earlier post. Beyond that, of course, you have attributed to me views that I have not expressed, so consideration of your motives appears to be appropriate. You expressed them for all to see. You clearly thought it highly relevant that the people accused of having racial bias were themselves black. And my motivations are still irrelevant, despite your repeated attempts to re-insert them into the conversation that you started by declaring your opponents “twits.” It is very bad form to respond to disagreement with your views with _ad hominem_ directed at me (or anyone else). > [@tomndebb](#): > > You are pretending that one single word, that does not yet have universal racial meaning, indicates that black leaders are buying into racist language. I’m not pretending anything. My sole point was that your view that being black insulates people from holding white supremacist prejudices or engaging in racist behavior is an overly simplistic view of racism–the sort of thing that a good eighth grade civics class should disabuse a person of. The rest of your argument about why “thug” is not racist is irrelevant to this point, and would apply to whether the speakers were black or white. Your prominent and repeated notation of the fact that they are black is what shows you are applying a rather superficial and narrow idea of what racism is and how it operates. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/320 "2015-05-03T19:20:18Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I really don’t see how this is any different from an octogenarian referring to black people as “colored” or “negro” in all contexts, and defending that as “it was perfectly polite in my day, I mean it as perfectly polite, and anyone too ignorant to understand that I mean it that way is so ignorant that I don’t give a fuck what they think.” Wellll… not really, although if I did hear an octogenarian use one of those words, I’d be “freakishly brilliant” enough to realize that said octogenarian might, in fact, be simply using words that he or she was familiar with. I don’t go around assuming everyone in the world uses words the same way I do. In fact, one needn’t be “freakish brilliant” at all in order to do that. It’s pretty natural to anyone with a smattering of an education. “Colored” and “negro” are now more archaic than offensive, but their meaning has not changed. They still mean today what we’d more likely call “black”. “Thug”, otoh, has a long history of meaning someone who is a violent criminal. The fact it has recently taken on additional meanings does not erase the older and still more common meaning. You are acting as if it is a _fait accompli_ that “thug” is beyond the pale for everyday use. It is not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959.md?page=17)