# I Steadfastly Reject This Sudden Rush to Redefine "Thug" as a Racial Slur **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 1, 2015, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959 "2015-05-01T03:04:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/381 "2015-05-03T22:45:09Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I am sure I can find a couple of people who would agree with me, if only to see if you stop using the word. well if you are just doing it out of spite then it really doesn’t apply, does it? is this how you normally back up your positions? with exaggerated claims tangential to the actual discussion? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/382 "2015-05-03T22:45:41Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I am sure I can find a couple of people who would agree with me, if only to see if you stop using the word. See this is a real “you’re seriously not getting it” moment here. You’re talking about people, on a whim, just deciding to tell people to stop using a word. We’re talking about people who are _actually hurt_ when others use a word. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/383 "2015-05-03T22:46:52Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > If you did find the word’s use harmful to you. But you don’t. I am telling you I do. You don’t believe me? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/384 "2015-05-03T22:47:57Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I am telling you I do. You don’t believe me? Of course I don’t believe you. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/385 "2015-05-03T22:48:17Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > See this is a real “you’re seriously not getting it” moment here. You’re talking about people, on a whim, just deciding to tell people to stop using a word. We’re talking about people who are _actually hurt_ when others use a word. It’s the same thing. You take a perfectly neutral word, and invent a reason for others not to use it. It offends me when you use the word “widespread”. It has sexual connotations. You know, “spread wide” thing. Stop using it. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/386 "2015-05-03T22:49:21Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Of course I don’t believe you. And I don’t believe you and others when you say that “thug” is offensive to you. It is manufactured offense, from the perpetual victimhood culture. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/387 "2015-05-03T22:49:53Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It’s the same thing. You take a perfectly neutral word, and invent a reason for others not to use it. It offends me when you use the word “widespread”. It has sexual connotations. You know, “spread wide” thing. Stop using it. There are zero people whom you are either fooling or convincing. I don’t see a point in continuing the discussion (but I’m always open to being proven wrong). ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/388 "2015-05-03T22:50:41Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Of course I don’t believe you. We really need a clip of Ronald Reagan saying “there you go with that mind reading again”. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/389 "2015-05-03T22:50:54Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > And I don’t believe you and others when you say that “thug” is offensive to you. It is manufactured offense, from the perpetual victimhood culture. Enjoy continuing to intentionally hurt people. I don’t know what it can possibly be like to be like you. It takes all kinds I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/390 "2015-05-03T22:53:00Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Enjoy continuing to intentionally hurt people. I don’t know what it can possibly be like to be like you. It takes all kinds I guess. I am “hurting” them just as much as you’re hurting me by intentionally and maliciously using the word “widespread”. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/391 "2015-05-03T22:53:55Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It’s the same thing. You take a perfectly neutral word, and invent a reason for others not to use it. It offends me when you use the word “widespread”. It has sexual connotations. You know, “spread wide” thing. Stop using it. > [@Terr](#): > > And I don’t believe you and others when you say that “thug” is offensive to you. It is manufactured offense, from the perpetual victimhood culture. Well I guess if you are determined - not - to see how it offends people you won’t. God forbid you slow down even 1% with your crusade against victimhood culture. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/392 "2015-05-03T22:55:26Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Well I guess if you are determined - not - to see how it offends people you won’t. God forbid you slow down even 1% with your crusade against victimhood culture. You’re utterly insensitive against my need for you to stop using the word “widespread”. God forbid you show some sensitivity and stop using this word. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/393 "2015-05-03T22:57:22Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I am “hurting” them just as much as you’re hurting me by intentionally and maliciously using the word “widespread”. To fail to have sympathy for those sending out clear pain signals is to exhibit either a character flaw or a pathology. Of course you will not agree that this remark applies to you. So my remark is not really made for your benefit. I bid you good day sir. _I bid you good day._ ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/394 "2015-05-03T23:00:16Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > no, because you are clearly making that up > > Limbaugh Calls President Obama “A Thug” And Accuses Him Of Threatening The Supreme Court > [http://mediamatters.org/video/2012/04/03/limbaugh-calls-president-obama-a-thug-and-accus/185667](http://mediamatters.org/video/2012/04/03/limbaugh-calls-president-obama-a-thug-and-accus/185667) > Limbaugh: Obama Is “A Street Thug. As A Community Organizer, That’s What You Are” > [http://mediamatters.org/video/2011/04/21/limbaugh-obama-is-a-street-thug-as-a-community/182349](http://mediamatters.org/video/2011/04/21/limbaugh-obama-is-a-street-thug-as-a-community/182349) > Richard Sherman: > > The Word “Thug” Was Uttered 625 Times On TV On Monday. That’s A Lot. > > The word “thug” has been used so many times by the same sort of people about the same sort of thing that it’s no longer even accurate to call it code—it’s really more of a shorthand. It means a black guy who makes white folks a little more uncomfortable than they prefer. On Sunday night, Richard Sherman made a lot of people uncomfortable. Then on Monday, people said thug on TV more often than on any other day in the past three years. > > [http://regressing.deadspin.com/the-word-thug-was-uttered-625-times-on-tv-yesterday-1506098319](http://regressing.deadspin.com/the-word-thug-was-uttered-625-times-on-tv-yesterday-1506098319) > Trayvon Martin: > > Trayvon Martin’s Drugs, Guns Cell Phone Records Make A Thug? > [Trayvon Martin’s Drugs, Guns Cell Phone Records Make A Thug? - Inquisitr](http://www.inquisitr.com/852379/trayvon-martin-drugs-guns-marijuana-cell-phone-thug/) > I really am not going to waste anymore time looking up stuff because I don’t think it will matter to you anyway. However, this is enough to get started. The information is out there. The question is, is your claim to want the information sincere? Richard This post doesn’t actually prove anything. If I can find a few examples of white people being called thugs, does that prove anything? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/395 "2015-05-03T23:02:50Z")
> [@OldOlds](#): > > Richard > > This post doesn’t actually prove anything. If I can find a few examples of white people being called thugs, does that prove anything? What it proves if you don’t want to know. Nobody said the term was a common derogatory term. The claim is that it is starting to be used as one. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/396 "2015-05-03T23:03:49Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > So we’ll innocently use some other synonymous term to accurately describe violent criminals, until _that_ word allegedly acquires racist connotations, and then we’ll switch to some _other_ term to convey the exact same meaning until it too acquires a racist connotation and thusly falls by the wayside, at which point we switch again? > > I get that that’s the idea, but remain genuinely mystified as to who this helps. It’s just how language works. Nobody’s disagreeing that it’s not a particularly efficient way for language to work, but language is not inherently efficient. In the same way, the words “gay” and “queer” have perfectly good meanings unrelated to sexual orientation, and no homosexual person has ever decreed that they can’t be used with their original meanings. But most people voluntarily abandoned using them with their original meanings, to avoid connotations of homosexuality. Efficient? No. Natural? Yes. A closer parallel to the path that the word “thug” seems to be headed down is [the evolution of the word “witch”.](http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=witch) It originated as a designation for somebody practicing (evil) magic, irrespective of gender: its ancestor in Old English has both masculine and feminine forms, and there are plenty of attestations in pre-modern English usage of the term “witch” being applied to men. But the gender connotations of “witch” in the broader sense of “woman of unpleasant or malevolent personality” ended up overwhelming its original gender-neutral meaning as “magical practitioner”. You would be very unlikely to call a man a “witch” nowadays, no matter how much sinister occult art he was practicing. ISTM that in the same way, the racial connotations of “thug” in the broader sense of “a black male of intimidating appearance or ‘edgy’ style” are on their way to overwhelming its original race-neutral meaning as “brutally violent (usually male) person”. Again, I’m not pointing that out to **forbid** you from intending the word “thug” in a race-neutral way, and I’m not jumping to the conclusion that any use of “thug” necessarily implies the speaker is racist. I’m just describing what seems to me like a familiar sort of linguistic evolution where, just as “witch” became a general term of disparagement for a woman whether or not she casts spells, “thug” is likely becoming a general term of disparagement for a black male whether or not he’s brutally violent. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/397 "2015-05-03T23:08:01Z")
I think you’re confusing a passing fad with the broad sweep of language changes that take place over decades and centuries. I’ll be shocked if “thug” as a racial slur is even a thing 20 years from now. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/398 "2015-05-03T23:09:58Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > You expressed them for all to see. You clearly thought it highly relevant that the people accused of having racial bias were themselves black. > > And my motivations are still irrelevant, despite your repeated attempts to re-insert them into the conversation that you started by declaring your opponents “twits.” It is very bad form to respond to disagreement with your views with _ad hominem_ directed at me (or anyone else). Piffle. You keep dancing around the fact that two people who have, themselves, had to struggle to overcome racism used a word that is, for the majority of people, not a racial word. Nothing I said could be construed to indicate that a person could not be accused of racism because he or she was black. That was your unfounded inference. And neither of the twits that I so identified are my opponents. I have had no exchanges with them on any level. You keep inventing things over which to be offended. > [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > I’m not pretending anything. My sole point was that your view that being black insulates people from holding white supremacist prejudices or engaging in racist behavior is an overly simplistic view of racism–the sort of thing that a good eighth grade civics class should disabuse a person of. And since I never said any such thing, I have to wonder what your motivation might be for asserting and repeating this baseless claim. I have noted in multiple other threads that institutional racism affects the behavior of all members of a society. That you have inferred a meaning from my earlier statement that both contradicts my general position and that does not actually appear in my statement in this thread simply indicates that you are going out of your way to find offense. > [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > The rest of your argument about why “thug” is not racist is irrelevant to this point, and would apply to whether the speakers were black or white. Your prominent and repeated notation of the fact that they are black is what shows you are applying a rather superficial and narrow idea of what racism is and how it operates. So in your imaginary world, the meaning of thug is irrelevant and had the mayor and president used the words criminals or rioters to condemn the violence, Stokes and Bryant would have been every bit as justified in condemning Obama or Rawlings-Blake, since the meaning of the words are irrelevant and the important point would be to avoid criticizing people who were causing mayhem in black neighborhoods? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/399 "2015-05-03T23:10:59Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I think you’re confusing a passing fad with the broad sweep of language changes that take place over decades and centuries. It could be a fad. But really you need to ask black people if they view it as a fad. They are much more sensitive to this type of treatment. By sensitive I mean, aware. When it’s not directed at white people it is hard for us to detect. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2015, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/400 "2015-05-03T23:17:22Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I think you’re confusing a passing fad with the broad sweep of language changes that take place over decades and centuries. I’ll be shocked if “thug” as a racial slur is even a thing 20 years from now. We’ll see. But what seems to be happening to “thug” is not at all atypical of the way derogatory terms get specifically attached to lower-status groups. I missed the edit window in my last post to include the example of a similar shift in meaning of the word [slut/sluttish](http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=slut), originally applicable to dirty/untidy/slovenly persons of either gender. “Slut” is now a fairly thoroughly feminized slur for a sexually indiscriminate woman. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959.md?page=21)