# I Steadfastly Reject This Sudden Rush to Redefine "Thug" as a Racial Slur **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 1, 2015, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959 "2015-05-01T03:04:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Sahirrnee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sahirrnee/32/13937_2.png) [@Sahirrnee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sahirrnee)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/461 "2015-05-04T19:24:46Z")
> [@Quimby](#): > > No the argument is, and always has been, there are media figures and others who sound like they are using the word “thug” because they know they can’t use the N word. How hard is that to grasp? Ok Then I will clarify Some people hear other people (media figures) use the word ‘thug’ and because it _sounds like_ (to them) that the word ‘thug’ is being used as a substitute for the N word it makes those of us who don’t hear the substitution racist. So the people who assign a color to ‘thug’ are not racist and those who don’t assign a color to ‘thug’ are. Sometimes a cigar really is just a cigar and maybe the people who think it is something else need to look to themselves as to why they need to make it something more. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/462 "2015-05-04T19:25:21Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Then you should address your complaints towards the people you believe are using the word “thug” incorrectly. That’s what we’re doing. > [@](#): > > Demanding that the word “thug” not be used when referring to black men isn’t going to solve your problem. That’s NOT what we’re doing. > [@](#): > > The media figures will simply choose another word (if that’s what they’re doing). Probably, yes. > [@](#): > > Do you intend to demand a race-specific end to the new word as well? Since we’re not doing that for this word, it’s unlikely we’ll do it for any hypothetical future word. > [@](#): > > Is free speech really dead? No, because again, nobody is trying to prevent you from using whatever word you want to use. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/463 "2015-05-04T19:28:16Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Hahahaha. If you have a problem with Hannity’s use of the word “thug”, don’t you think that you are the one who should be taking it up with Hannity? Is no my job. I don’t have a problem with it. I mean, he’s a cunt, but that’s besides the point. And I’m not married to the word “thug”, nor religious-like insist on what words _should_ mean or how people \*should \*be taking words irrespective of actual usage. > [@](#): > > I’m the one who hasn’t seen a convincing argument that “thug” is the new N-word. Well maybe that’d be because nobody asserted such, either. You know, you really should read the thread at some point. I feel like that could help. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/464 "2015-05-04T19:33:51Z")
> [@Sahirrnee](#): > > Ok > Then I will clarify > Some people hear other people (media figures) use the word ‘thug’ and because it _sounds like_ (to them) that the word ‘thug’ is being used as a substitute for the N word it makes those of us who don’t hear the substitution racist. > > So the people who assign a color to ‘thug’ are not racist and those who don’t assign a color to ‘thug’ are. Nope! Still not even close. There are three basic groups involved in this issue. The first is racists, who have started to use “thug” as a catch-all term for any young black male. The second are people who have noticed what the first group is doing, and are saying, “Hey, that’s fucked up, what those people are doing with the word ‘thug.’” The third group are people who have not noticed what the first group is doing. If you do not assign a racial dimension to the word “thug,” you are either in the second, or the third group. If you are in the third group, the people in the second group _are not talking about you._ They are talking about the people in the first group. If you don’t think “thug” should be a racial insult, don’t complain about the people in the second group, complain about the people in the first group. Those are the ones changing the meaning of the word. And the more time you waste arguing with people in the second group, and ignoring the people in the first group, the more ground the people in the first group are going to make in permanently changing the connotation of the word “thug.” Which is something that neither the people in the second group, nor the people in the third group, want to see happen. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/465 "2015-05-04T19:39:55Z")
> [@mascaroni](#): > > It’s a British word, albeit a corruption of an Indian one. > > If you lot over the pond want to borrow our language free of charge we expect you to retain our definitions and usage. Or we’ll have to to charging you. > > “No misrepresentation without taxation” > > Anyway, I’m going outside to smoke a fag. LOL. Thank you. This is the best post of the whole thread. I award you a _Post of the Day_ award (but no monetary compensation). ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/466 "2015-05-04T19:43:48Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > You have a weird idea about how wagers work. **handsomeharry** is covering both sides. Assuming there were no odds involved, that’s a safe bet. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/467 "2015-05-04T19:53:54Z")
I see people are still floundering in their attempt to attach the meaning of the word “thug” to the meaning of the N-word. Which isn’t going to solve their problem, anyway. Other words will no doubt hurt their feelings in the future. I wish them the best of luck swimming against the current of free speech. Why did the N-word become the N-word? The N-word represents an embareassing time when human beings owned other human beings. It brings back memories of whippings, beatings, mutilations, and lynchings. The only other word, that I’m aware of, that invokes such horrific memories is “Nazi”. How is the N-word similar to Nazi? According to Mike Godwin on Godwin’s Rule of Nazi Analogies: \*I Seem To Be A Verb: 18 Years of Godwin’s Law - …Overall, though, I’m content that the Law has as much popcult traction as it does. My feeling is that “Never Again” loses its meaning if we don’t regularly remind ourselves of the terrible inflection point marked in human culture by the Holocaust. Sure, there has been genocide before that point and genocide after it, but to see an advanced, highly civilized nation warp itself into something capable of creating such a horror—well, I think Nazi Germany does count as a first in that regard. And to a great extent, our challenge as human beings who live in the period after that inflection point is that we no longer can be passive about history—we have a moral obligation to do what we can to prevent such events from ever happening again. Key to that obligation is remembering, which is what Godwin’s Law is all about.\* [http://jewcy.com/jewish-arts-and-culture/i\_seem\_be\_verb\_18\_years\_godwins\_law](http://jewcy.com/jewish-arts-and-culture/i_seem_be_verb_18_years_godwins_law) Godwin’s opinion is that “Never Again” loses its meaning when it is diluted by the various discussions comparing anything, and anyone, else to Hitler and Nazis. This seems similar to the current attempt to tie the word “thug” to the N-word. Meanwhile, back to the “thug is the new N-word” discussion. nig•ger /ˈnɪg ər/ n. — usage. The term NIGGER is now probably the most offensive word in English. Its degree of offensiveness has increased markedly in recent years, although it has been used in a derogatory manner since at least the Revolutionary War. Definitions 1a , 1b , and 2 represent meanings that are deeply disparaging and are used when the speaker deliberately wishes to cause great offense. Definition 1a , however, is sometimes used among African-Americans in a neutral or familiar way. Definition 3 is not normally considered disparaging - as in “The Irish are the niggers of Europe” from Roddy Doyle’s The Commitments - but the other uses are considered contemptuous and hostile.— — n. 1. Slang: Extremely Disparaging and Offensive. a. (a contemptuous term used to refer to a black person.) b. (a contemptuous term used to refer to a member of any dark-skinned people.) 2. Slang: Extremely Disparaging and Offensive. (a contemptuous term used to refer to a person of any race or origin regarded as contemptible, inferior, ignorant, etc.) 3. a victim of prejudice similar to that suffered by blacks; a person who is economically, politically, or socially disenfranchised. > **[kdictionaries-online.com - This website is for...](http://www.kdictionaries-online.com/DictionaryPage.aspx?ApplicationCode=18#&&DictionaryEntry=nigger&SearchMode=Entry)** > > This website is for sale! kdictionaries-online.com is your first and best source for all of the information you’re looking for. From general topics to more of what you would expect to find here, kdictionaries-online.com has it all. We hope you find... How does that compare to “thug”? _thug /θʌg/ n. 1. a vicious criminal or ruffian. 2. (sometimes cap.) a member of a fraternity of professional robbers and murderers in India, suppressed by the British in the 19th century. [1800–10; \< Hindi thag lit., rogue, cheat] –thug′ger•y, n. –thug′gish, adj._ > **[kdictionaries-online.com - This website is for...](http://www.kdictionaries-online.com/DictionaryPage.aspx?ApplicationCode=18#&&DictionaryEntry=Thug&SearchMode=Entry)** > > This website is for sale! kdictionaries-online.com is your first and best source for all of the information you’re looking for. From general topics to more of what you would expect to find here, kdictionaries-online.com has it all. We hope you find... I believe that the attempt to force political-correction on the majority of the nation weakens and dilutes the meaning, and force, of the N-word. The bottom line is that “thug” is in no way comparable to the N-word. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/468 "2015-05-04T20:08:40Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > …Well maybe that’d be because nobody asserted such, either. You know, you really should read the thread at some point. I feel like that could help. (post shortened) Isn’t this the _I Steadfastly Reject This Sudden Rush to Redefine “Thug” as a Racial Slur_ thread? I’m still the one who hasn’t seen a convincing argument that “thug” is the new N-word. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/469 "2015-05-04T20:10:04Z")
Keep using as if it weren’t and eventually enough people will have explained it to you. Some will do so rather forcefully, perhaps. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/470 "2015-05-04T20:11:40Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > I’m still the one who hasn’t seen a convincing argument that “thug” is the new N-word. That’s because nobody is arguing that. Seriously, you should take **Kobal** ’s advice and try reading the thread before you respond further. It’ll really help you figure out what’s going on in here. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/471 "2015-05-04T20:19:03Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Keep using as if it weren’t and eventually enough people will have explained it to you. Some will do so rather forcefully, perhaps. Tsk, tsk. More subtle coercion. Or is that an outright threat? I hope you don’t mind if I reject your attempt to bully me into complying with your politically-correct definition change of the word “thug”. It’s not personal, it’s just business. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/472 "2015-05-04T20:21:58Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > That’s because nobody is arguing that. Seriously, you should take **Kobal** ’s advice and try reading the thread before you respond further. It’ll really help you figure out what’s going on in here. Isn’t the title of thread - _I Steadfastly Reject This Sudden Rush to Redefine “Thug” as a Racial Slur_? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/473 "2015-05-04T20:23:05Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > This is wholly different from “telling me I cannot use the word”. You absolutely can. You can say anything you damn well please, it’s a free country. You can even call black people niggers, if that rocks your boat. Terr: “I have a problem with people telling me I **should not** /cannot use the word because of THEIR silly reasons.” ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/474 "2015-05-04T20:23:57Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > I hope you don’t mind if I reject your attempt to bully me into complying It ain’t me, caring how little I do what you think. It could be pretty much everybody you meet, though. Suit yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/475 "2015-05-04T21:08:47Z")
[Coincidentally…](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rachel-garlinghouse/to-the-lady-who-called-my-toddler-a-thug_b_6903332.html) I know, I know, just one person, she didn’t mean anything by it, blah blah blah. Just putting it in as a data point. ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/476 "2015-05-04T21:35:25Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Then you should address your complaints towards the people you believe are using the word “thug” incorrectly. > > Demanding that the word “thug” not be used when referring to black men isn’t going to solve your problem. The media figures will simply choose another word (if that’s what they’re doing). Do you intend to demand a race-specific end to the new word as well? Is free speech really dead? I can’t speak for others but I never asked anyone to stop saying anything. I am just pointing out an observation. Also I did not call anyone on this board racist but I believe the people in the media who are doing what I described probably are. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/477 "2015-05-04T21:42:45Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > [Coincidentally…](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rachel-garlinghouse/to-the-lady-who-called-my-toddler-a-thug_b_6903332.html) > > I know, I know, just one person, she didn’t mean anything by it, blah blah blah. Just putting it in as a data point. Not sure I would elevate sume huffpo blog entry to the status of “data point”. And not sure "coincidentally " fits either. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/478 "2015-05-04T21:44:04Z")
About how black people genuinely feel about the word and its implications? Why not? ---
**Author:** ![Salvor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Salvor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Salvor)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/479 "2015-05-04T21:53:27Z")
There is another thing that bothers me about trying to remove the word thug to describe people looting/burning/destroying property. I think people against the term are annoyed and opposed to two separate things but only mention one. The one mentioned is of course the negative connotations and links to black people and not other people. I think they are right about that to an extent. The term is more commonly applied to black people behaving in a certain way. Even if we normalized for any differential rates of behavior between blacks and other groups, I still suspect there would be a greater use of the term with black people compared to other groups. But there seems to me to be another aspect that bothers the same people complaining about the term thug. What is that exactly? Thug ALSO describes certain types of BEHAVIOR. And therein lies the holy enemy of our time for many people on the left. Behavior is not controlled completely by society, it is controlled by individuals. Society can influence and nudge people, but ultimately it’s the people themselves that are the final arbiters of how they behave and interact with the world. What’s wrong or controversial about that? The more we buy into that narrative, the less power a completely external model of problems takes hold. The reason people are behaving x way or y way is not because of their own failings, it’s because of societies failings. Failures of quality school distribution, economic opportunity, discrimination, police profiling, etc etc. By using a term to describe people and their actions like thug, we are endorsing a view of people and their actions that presumes some amount of an internal locus of control, not JUST an external locus of control like REALLY far left liberals are sometimes want to do. Now personally, I think that’s the right model, I don’t want people to farm out the rationale for why someone does something so heavily towards what outside forces made them do. There is a denial of agency and responsibility in that view that I find particularly vile and insulting. Poor little crippled black people, incapable of making better decision until the entire universe is just and fair. It’s a ridiculous model to focus on because we have LESS control over society at large than we do over ourselves. It’s not that you don’t focus on making society more just, but to completely ignore the component of your own behavior that you have FAR more control over seems criminally counterproductive. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2015, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/480 "2015-05-04T21:53:52Z")
@Leaper: Well, first off the blogger is white. Secondly, I generally don’t accept some random person’s blog to be true. Seems a little too on the mark yet outrageous. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959.md?page=25)