# I Steadfastly Reject This Sudden Rush to Redefine "Thug" as a Racial Slur **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 1, 2015, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959 "2015-05-01T03:04:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/561 "2015-05-06T17:58:38Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > And you will never admit that it could be anything but. > > Regards, > Shodan Do you think it’s credible that Karl Rove doesn’t know what the word “thug” means? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/562 "2015-05-06T18:07:02Z")
No, I am quite sure he knows what it means. The problem is that you are trying to convince me that you know what he meant better than he does or I do. Language operates by consensus. There is not a consensus that “thug” means “racist”. Your insistence that it does means nothing - you don’t get to decide. You have to demonstrate in some way that the meaning has shifted. You have not even attempted to do so. Therefore, the meaning has not shifted. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/563 "2015-05-06T18:17:57Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, I am quite sure he knows what it means. The problem is that you are trying to convince me that you know what he meant better than he does or I do. Then why was he using it to describe someone who is neither violent, nor criminal? He was trying to communicate _something_ by describing Common as a thug. What do you think he was trying to communicate? > [@](#): > > Language operates by consensus. There is not a consensus that “thug” means “racist”. Your insistence that it does means nothing - you don’t get to decide. Language operates by consensus, sure - but that consensus doesn’t necessarily have to include the entire population who speaks a particular language. The number “420” is just the number that comes between 419 and 421 to most people. But to people who smoke pot, it has a different, coded meaning that’s not shared by the majority of English language speakers. > [@](#): > > You have to demonstrate in some way that the meaning has shifted. You have not even attempted to do so. Therefore, the meaning has not shifted. You mean me, personally? No, you’re right, I haven’t personally posted any cites to support the idea that some people are using “thug” as a coded racial slur. But other people in this thread have. Since you apparently rejecting all of those cites, what sort of evidence would you accept that some people are using “thug” as a coded racial slur? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/564 "2015-05-06T18:40:56Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Excuse me? I don’t remember electing you as my representative to the **politically-correct, word-police** commission? Who said it was a rebuttal? I just realized something. If anybody disagreeing with \*\*doorhinge \*\*is the “word-police”, does that implicitly make him the word-thug ? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/565 "2015-05-06T18:58:59Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Then why was he using it to describe someone who is neither violent, nor criminal? He was trying to communicate _something_ by describing Common as a thug. What do you think he was trying to communicate? “Unfriendly insufficiently patriotic black man” seems to have been [the message Rove was trying to convey](http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2011/05/11/165382/karl-rove-white-house-common-thu/): > [@](#): > > After learning that Grammy-winning hip-hop artist and long-time Obama supporter Common will attend, conservative news outlets and pundits seized on the artist’s mention of controversial topics in his lyrics to lambast President Obama for hosting a “vile rapper.” > > Particularly aghast over the “Burn a Bush cos’ for peace he no push no button” line in Common’s anti-Iraq war song “A Letter to the Law,” Fox News host Sean Hannity invited Bush’s former White House adviser Karl Rove on to berate the president and first lady for “inviting a thug to the White House“: > > ROVE: "[…] we have an example of how this White House thinks it can recapture that moment — by inviting a thug to the White House, a man who called for the death of Mr. Obama’s predecessor in office. […] > > “This guy is a thug! […] why would he invite a thug to the White House who said he wanted to kill President Bush for taking the country to war in Iraq?” > > The Loop21’s Keli Goff noted last night on Fox News that Common’s “burn a bush” lyric is a rhetorical “play on words” referencing the Bible rather than a call to assassinate the president. “If you said to me that Common threatened the life of President Bush, then I’d be the first person to say he doesn’t belong in the White House,” Goff said. > > Goff added that Common is actually not known for his negative lyrics but is widely reputed to be a positive, politically conscience hip-hop artist who actively combats “thug” stereotypes. While Rove relishes in labeling Common with the racially-charged term “thug,” Raw Story points out that a Fox News reporter called Common “very positive” not too long ago […] > > Incidentally, was Rove manning the vetting desk when President Bush invited “the Prince of Darkness” Ozzy Osbourne to dinner at the White House in 2002? Not only has Osbourne bit the heads off multiple animals, he was sued twice for his song “Suicide Solution” after two teenagers took their lives. […] > > But the difference now is there’s an African American in the White House — one who also has been labeled a “thug” […] Wait, _Obama_ labeled a “thug”? [Yup.](http://mediamatters.org/video/2011/04/21/limbaugh-obama-is-a-street-thug-as-a-community/182349) > [@](#): > > Limbaugh: Obama Is “A Street Thug. As A Community Organizer, That’s What You Are” > > Limbaugh: “For Lack Of A Better Word,” Obama “Has Chosen A Thuggish Approach To Achieve His Ends” > > Limbaugh: Obama administration is “going after Toyota” through “thug politics” > > Limbaugh: “Barack Hussein Obama is out acting like a spoiled brat Chicago thug who is not getting his way” > > Limbaugh says Obama is “right out of thug city” But, y’know, I’m sure he didn’t mean it in a “racist” way. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/566 "2015-05-06T19:07:20Z")
I’d be interested to see how many of the right-wingers referred to Cliven Bundy and his group of armed anti-government lackeys as thugs, back when that story was in the news. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/567 "2015-05-06T19:11:01Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > I’d be interested to see how many of the right-wingers referred to Cliven Bundy and his group of armed anti-government lackeys as thugs, back when that story was in the news. Why is it relevant whether it’s right-wingers or not? How about a bunch of cites that refer to Cliven Bundy et al as thugs, whatever the source? There are quite a few. Does that mean it is not a racist term or does that mean it is only a racist term when applied to blacks? And [Cliven’s supporters that are black](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHQ1SYZq-g8) - if you refer to them as thugs, is that racist? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/568 "2015-05-06T19:34:26Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > I’d be interested to see how many of the right-wingers referred to Cliven Bundy and his group of armed anti-government lackeys as thugs, back when that story was in the news. Does this mean you have lost interest in this I Steadfastly Reject This Sudden Rush to Redefine “Thug” as a Racial Slur thread? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/569 "2015-05-06T19:39:41Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Then why was he using it to describe someone who is neither violent, nor criminal? He was trying to communicate _something_ by describing Common as a thug. What do you think he was trying to communicate? I suspect he thought that, as a rapper, Common was a thug. Many rappers are, or cultivate the persona. I know nothing about rap or Common, so I suspect Rove made a mistake. So he was wrong - how does that establish racism? > [@](#): > > Language operates by consensus, sure - but that consensus doesn’t necessarily have to include the entire population who speaks a particular language. Sure, but it does have to include more than just a small group of people seeking victimhood. > [@](#): > > You mean me, personally? No, you’re right, I haven’t personally posted any cites to support the idea that some people are using “thug” as a coded racial slur. But other people in this thread have. Since you apparently rejecting all of those cites, what sort of evidence would you accept that some people are using “thug” as a coded racial slur? That isn’t what needs citing. You need to show that the general consensus is that “thug” is a racist term. Not that you want it to be considered as such - that it generally is. It doesn’t establish anything if some people use “thug” as a racial slur. There is hardly a pejorative that hasn’t been used as a racial slur. Racists have called black people “violent”. Is therefore the statement “the looters in Baltimore were violent” a racist slur? Racists have called black people “stupid”. Is therefore the statement “Maxine Waters is stupid” a racist slur? You need to establish that, in general, “thug” denotes racism. You haven’t done that, nor has anyone else in the thread. Regards, Shodan ETA: thanks to **Kimstu** for making it clear that Rove was not mistaken. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/570 "2015-05-06T19:39:57Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Why is it relevant whether it’s right-wingers or not? > > How about a bunch of cites that refer to Cliven Bundy et al as thugs, whatever the source? There are quite a few. Does that mean it is not a racist term or does that mean it is only a racist term when applied to blacks? And [Cliven’s supporters that are black](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHQ1SYZq-g8) - if you refer to them as thugs, is that racist? Look, i’ve made very clear my general position on the word, and on this debate. If someone acts like an actual thug, then referring to that person as a thug is not a problem for me, particularly not in an individual instance. As i made quite clear, and as others have also said, this is about broader patterns of usage, both for particular individuals over time, and in the wider society Where i begin to have a problem with the usage is in two separate (but sometimes overlapping) scenarios. Scenario A: People who habitually refer to African Americans who are NOT engaged in thuggish behavior as thugs. Scenario B: People who habitually refer to African Americans who ARE engaged in thuggish behavior as thugs, but who do NOT refer to white people who engage in similar behavior as thugs. Is that simple enough for you? So, Rush Limbaugh frequently refers to Barack Obama as a thug. If he did not refer to Cliven Bundy’s supporters as thugs, that tells me something about how Limbaugh believes the word should be used. And bully for you. You found a black supporter of Bundy. I’m not talking about some guy on YouTube; i’m talking about the armed guys who were actually gathered around him during the standoff with federal authorities. How many black supporters were in that crowd? Could you do a count for me? Don’t worry; even if you’re missing about eight of your fingers, you’ll probably still have enough left to count the black faces. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/571 "2015-05-06T19:44:35Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > “Unfriendly insufficiently patriotic black man” seems to have been [the message Rove was trying to convey](http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2011/05/11/165382/karl-rove-white-house-common-thu/): (post shortened) \*…Particularly aghast over the “Burn a Bush cos’ for peace he no push no button” line in Common’s anti-Iraq war song “A Letter to the Law,”… ROVE: "[…] we have an example of how this White House thinks it can recapture that moment — by inviting a thug to the White House, a man who called for the death of Mr. Obama’s predecessor in office. The Loop21’s Keli Goff noted last night on Fox News that Common’s “burn a bush” lyric is a rhetorical “play on words” referencing the Bible rather than a call to assassinate the president.\* Apparently, Rove was under the impression that Common advocated killing Bush. You should let Rove know that you vouch for Common’s good name. Or you can chose to call people racist. Which option do you believe would best solve this misunderstanding? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/572 "2015-05-06T19:48:28Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Why is it relevant whether it’s right-wingers or not? IAN **mhendo** and can not speak for him. But ISTM that the issue here is that it’s mostly, or most vehemently, conservatives who are insisting that **it’s still acceptable to apply the term “thugs” to black men who are being violent, because they think there’s insufficient evidence that “thug” has become a racist dogwhistle code for “not violent, just black”.** So if conservatives are willing to use the word “thug” to refer to violent **or** non-violent black men, but don’t apply the word in the same way to white men, then they’re being (consciously or unconsciously) hypocritical in insisting that “thug” is still a race-neutral term. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/573 "2015-05-06T19:48:51Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I just realized something. If anybody disagreeing with \*\*doorhinge \*\*is the “word-police”, does that implicitly make him the word-thug ? And your realization would be wrong. Thanks for playing Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/574 "2015-05-06T19:52:11Z")
[quote=“mhendo, post:570, topic:718959”] Scenario A: People who habitually refer to African Americans who are NOT engaged in thuggish behavior as thugs. Scenario B: People who habitually refer to African Americans who ARE engaged in thuggish behavior as thugs, but who do NOT refer to white people who engage in similar behavior as thugs. Cool. How about the reverse? People who would not dream of referring to someone black as a “thug” but have [no problem](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/05/14/1299275/-Cliven-Bundy-Thugs-We-Had-a-Bead-On-The-Feds-With-Intent-to-Kill-Them) [referring](http://www.thomhartmann.com/users/ozark-matt/blog/2015/01/cliven-bundys-thug-son-arrested-drug-charges) to whites with the word? Are they racist? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/575 "2015-05-06T20:04:37Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > ETA: thanks to **Kimstu** for making it clear that Rove was not mistaken. Not mistaken? You realize that Common didn’t _actually_ set Bush on fire, right? You’ve been beating your chest in this thread for days about the “real” meaning of “thug.” Why are you suddenly discarding that meaning now? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/576 "2015-05-06T20:24:39Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > IAN **mhendo** and can not speak for him. But ISTM that the issue here is that it’s mostly, or most vehemently, conservatives who are insisting that **it’s still acceptable to apply the term “thugs” to black men who are being violent, because they think there’s insufficient evidence that “thug” has become a racist dogwhistle code for “not violent, just black”.** (post shortened) Yes, the word “thug” still applies to violent persons of all races. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/577 "2015-05-06T20:29:35Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Not mistaken? You realize that Common didn’t _actually_ set Bush on fire, right? (post shortened) It appears that Rove may have been given incorrect information concerning Common’s lyrics. You still have the option of correcting Rove. Or you can just call people racist. Whichever is easier for you. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/578 "2015-05-06T20:35:31Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Apparently, Rove was under the impression that Common advocated killing Bush. > [@Shodan](#): > > ETA: thanks to Kimstu for making it clear that Rove was not mistaken. Apparently Rove’s “thug” meter didn’t get pinged when white rocker Ted Nugent yelled during a performance, “Obama, he’s a piece of shit, I told him to suck on my machine gun”. On the one hand, you’re claiming it’s appropriate to use the word “thug” for black rioters because they’re actually committing violence. On the other hand, you’re claiming it’s okay to use the word “thug” for non-violent black rappers if their lyrics contain aggressive or hostile language, because you claim they’re “advocating” violence. Yet prominent white people also use aggressive or hostile language about killing people they disapprove of. Like [Glenn Beck musing on-air that he thinks about killing Michael Moore](http://mediamatters.org/research/2005/05/18/radio-host-glenn-beck-thinking-about-killing-mi/133221), or [Ann Coulter saying that we need to execute John Walker to physically intimidate liberals, or that her only regret about Timothy McVeigh is that he didn’t blow up the _New York Times_ building](http://makethemaccountable.com/myth/LiberalsShouldBeNICE.htm). (And that’s not even getting into the notorious [Psalm 108 wishing-death-on-Obama slogan](http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2009/1116/biblical-anti-obama-slogan-use-of-psalm-1098-funny-or-sinister) that was very popular with conservatives after he was first elected.) Nonetheless, Glenn Beck and Ann Coulter and other “edgy” mainstream conservative spokespeople get invited to the White House and to major conservative gatherings, and conservatives don’t seem to call them “thugs” for their aggressive and hostile speech. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/579 "2015-05-06T20:35:35Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Not mistaken? You realize that Common didn’t _actually_ set Bush on fire, right? You’ve been beating your chest in this thread for days about the “real” meaning of “thug.” Why are you suddenly discarding that meaning now? ISTM that making a death threat against the President fits under the definition of “thug”. So I am not really abandoning anything. Not that I am telling you anything you don’t already know. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/580 "2015-05-06T20:37:06Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > (post shortened) > > It appears that Rove may have been given incorrect information concerning Common’s lyrics. You still have the option of correcting Rove. Or you can just call people racist. Whichever is easier for you. What do the lyrics have to do with anything? According to you and **Shodan** , “thug” means “violent criminal,” and it only means “violent criminal,” and it can never mean anything other than “violent criminal.” Since song lyrics are neither violent nor criminal, how is it possible that Rove could have thought Common was a thug based solely on his song lyrics? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959.md?page=30)