# I Steadfastly Reject This Sudden Rush to Redefine "Thug" as a Racial Slur **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 1, 2015, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959 "2015-05-01T03:04:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/581 "2015-05-06T20:41:17Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > On the one hand, you’re claiming it’s appropriate to use the word “thug” for black rioters because they’re actually committing violence. On the other hand, you’re claiming it’s okay to use the word “thug” for non-violent black rappers if their lyrics contain aggressive or hostile language, because you claim they’re “advocating” violence. You are using too many hands. It is appropriate to refer to anyone, black or white, as a “thug” if their behavior warrants it. There is no racist component either way. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/582 "2015-05-06T20:41:54Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Not that I am telling you anything you don’t already know. > > Regards, > Shodan No, I can honestly say I had no idea how you were going to justify the gaping inconsistencies in your argument. I did think you’d do a better job of it than you just did, though. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/583 "2015-05-06T20:42:45Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > What do the lyrics have to do with anything? According to you and **Shodan** , “thug” means “violent criminal,” and it only means “violent criminal,” and it can never mean anything other than “violent criminal.” Since song lyrics are neither violent nor criminal, how is it possible that Rove could have thought Common was a thug based solely on his song lyrics? Because song lyrics can be violent. You are wrong to say otherwise. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/584 "2015-05-06T20:45:21Z")
Anyone ever get their leg broken by a song lyric? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/585 "2015-05-06T20:53:22Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > ISTM that making a death threat against the President fits under the definition of “thug”. If using the biblical-allusion play on words “burn a Bush” in a Def Poetry Jam lyric seems to you like actually **making a death threat against the President** , you must have been **terribly** upset [by threats like the following](http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2011-01-10/news/bs-ed-schaller-20110110_1_house-candidate-conservatives-senate-candidate-sharron-angle): > [@](#): > > […] 20 Democratic House members, including Ms. Giffords, whom Sarah Palin “targeted” in an online graphic, complete with rifle sight crosshairs. (By the way, if Ms. Palin was a woman who truly stuck to her political guns, so to speak, why did she so quickly scrub her websites of said graphics?) > > On Oct. 9, 2009, House candidate Robert Lowry of Florida held an event at a Broward County gun range during which he fired at a series of symbolic political targets, including a silhouette with his opponent Rep. Debbie Wasserman-Schultz’s initials on it. > > On Jan. 10, 2010, Nevada Senate candidate Sharron Angle spoke of the need for “Second Amendment remedies” to congressional policies, and specifically called for “taking out” Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid. > > On May 10, 2010, House candidate Brad Goehring from California’s 11th District wrote on his Facebook page: “If I could issue hunting permits, I would officially declare today opening day for liberals. The season would extend through November 2 and have no limits on how many taken as we desperately need to ‘thin’ the herd.” > > Jesse Kelly, the Republican who ran against Ms. Giffords last cycle, held an event on June 12, 2010, advertised locally as follows: “Get on Target for Victory in November. Help remove Gabrielle Giffords from office. Shoot a fully automatic M16 With Jesse Kelly.” I don’t recall any conservatives lining up to call any of those people “thugs” for using aggressive and hostile language or metaphorically calling for violence. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/586 "2015-05-06T20:53:44Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > What do the lyrics have to do with anything? According to you and **Shodan** , “thug” means “violent criminal,” and it only means “violent criminal,” and it can never mean anything other than “violent criminal.” Since song lyrics are neither violent nor criminal, how is it possible that Rove could have thought Common was a thug based solely on his song lyrics? You’ll have to ask Rove for a more specific answer. It’s possible, maybe, that Common’s lyric’s were misunderstood to mean Common was calling, or dog whistling, if you prefer, to his followers to commit violence against Bush. …_Particularly aghast over the “Burn a Bush cos’ for peace he no push no button” line in Common’s anti-Iraq war song “A Letter to the Law,”…_ Personally, I have absolutely no idea what “_Burn a Bush cos’ for peace he no push no button_”, means in English. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/587 "2015-05-06T20:58:55Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > If using the biblical-allusion play on words “burn a Bush” in a Def Poetry Jam lyric seems to you like actually **making a death threat against the President** , you must have been **terribly** upset [by threats like the following](http://articles.baltmoresun.com/2011-01-10/news/bs-ed-schaller-20110110_1_house-candidate-conservatives-senate-candidate-sharron-angle): > I don’t recall any conservatives lining up to call any of those people “thugs” for using aggressive and hostile language or metaphorically calling for violence. It’s sounds like the politically-correct, word-police are demanding that only conservatives refer to more people as “thugs”? It’s a good thing that most people don’t listen to the dog whistles of the PCWP, ain’t it. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/588 "2015-05-06T20:59:30Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It is appropriate to refer to anyone, black or white, as a “thug” if their behavior warrants it. We’re not arguing that the **dictionary definition** of “thug” isn’t race-neutral. Sure, if “thug” means “violent criminal”, then anyone of any race who’s a violent criminal can appropriately be called a “thug”. What we’re pointing out is that the **actual current usage** of “thug” is not race-neutral. The term “thug” is significantly more likely to be applied to people who are **not** violent criminals if those people happen to be black. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/589 "2015-05-06T21:06:09Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > It’s sounds like the politically-correct, word-police are demanding No, as I noted before, it’s those who claim to “reject” the recognition of “thug as a racial slur” who are being demanding. You’re demanding that you be able to use the word “thug” without anybody thinking that it makes you sound kinda racist. What we’re doing, on the other hand, is simply observing that **since “thug” _does_ appear to have a noticeable presence as a racial slur in current linguistic usage,** you should not count on being able to use the word “thug” without anybody thinking that it makes you sound kinda racist. Like I said, don’t shoot the messenger. You’re pretending that we’re somehow **forcing** the evolving racial connotations of “thug” on you against your will, but we’re not: we’re simply reporting them. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/590 "2015-05-06T21:06:49Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > We’re not arguing that the **dictionary definition** of “thug” isn’t race-neutral. Sure, if “thug” means “violent criminal”, then anyone of any race who’s a violent criminal can appropriately be called a “thug”. > > What we’re pointing out is that the **actual current usage** of “thug” is not race-neutral. The term “thug” is significantly more likely to be applied to people who are **not** violent criminals if those people happen to be black. “Significantly”? Really? Free speech can be a bitch. There is still no compelling reason to elevate the word “thug” to a racial slur, and there is absolutely no reason to consider “thug” to be the new N-word. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/591 "2015-05-06T21:10:35Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > The term “thug” is significantly more likely to be applied to people who are **not** violent criminals if those people happen to be black. Was there a study I missed? Cite? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/592 "2015-05-06T21:15:41Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > No, as I noted before, it’s those who claim to “reject” the recognition of “thug as a racial slur” who are being demanding. You’re demanding that you be able to use the word “thug” without anybody thinking that it makes you sound kinda racist. > > What we’re doing, on the other hand, is simply observing that **since “thug” _does_ appear to have a noticeable presence as a racial slur in current linguistic usage,** you should not count on being able to use the word “thug” without anybody thinking that it makes you sound kinda racist. > > Like I said, don’t shoot the messenger. You’re pretending that we’re somehow **forcing** the evolving racial connotations of “thug” on you against your will, but we’re not: we’re simply reporting them. No, you’re trying to coerce others into accepting your misinterpretation of the word “thug”. Your misinterpretation is being rejected, or ignored. You can call anyone a racist. Your intended victim can consider you to be ignorant, or a bully. Round and a round and a round they go. I think it’s much simpler educate a person as to the meaning of the word “thug”, and why they used it incorrectly. Or you can call them a racist. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/593 "2015-05-06T21:20:53Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Personally, I have absolutely no idea what “_Burn a Bush cos’ for peace he no push no button_”, means in English. Maybe that nice elderly lady from the movie Airplane could translate for you? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/594 "2015-05-06T21:37:20Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Was there a study I missed? None that I know of. If it comforts you to think that the absence of a statistical study on the usage of “thug” somehow magically insulates you from being thought to sound kinda racist for using “thug”, knock yourself out. But that’s not how language works. It’s not like there’s some linguistic authority (like **doorhinge** ’s imaginary “politically correct word police”) that has the power to officially determine when a term can definitively be considered a slur. And it’s not like those of us who are pointing out evidence that such a term **is** being used as a slur are claiming any such authority or power to “make” you stop using the term. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/595 "2015-05-06T21:37:49Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Maybe that nice elderly lady from the movie Airplane could translate for you? 🙂 Beaver’s mom? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/596 "2015-05-06T21:50:18Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > None that I know of. If it comforts you to think that the absence of a statistical study on the usage of “thug” somehow magically insulates you from being thought to sound kinda racist for using “thug”, knock yourself out. (post shortened and underline added) Why didn’t you say that before? :smack: Of course the absence of a statistical study proves your position. :rolleyes: “Sound kinda racist”? Are you backing off on your sides threat to call people who use the word “thug”, racist? Are you going to call people who use the word “thug” racist, or not? If you’re not, then there’s no reason redefine “thug” as a racial slur. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/597 "2015-05-06T21:50:24Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > No, you’re trying to coerce others into accepting your misinterpretation of the word “thug”. :dubious: Gee, presenting documented evidence about actual recorded uses of the word “thug” is just so coercive of me. I feel terrible. [QUOTE=doorhinge] You can call anyone a racist. Your intended victim can consider you to be ignorant, or a bully. [/QUOTE] Yup, that’s the risk we all run when using words that are subject to natural linguistic evolution. Sure, it would be nice if every word **only** had the meaning of its recognized dictionary definition, without any changing connotations that could cause somebody to misunderstand a speaker’s intended meaning. But that’s fantasy, not reality. Sticking your head in the sand about issues of linguistic evolution, and accusing other people of trying to “coerce” or “victimize” you when they point those issues out, is just retreating into delusion. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/598 "2015-05-06T21:51:17Z")
Be careful Jive Ass Turkey…“Beaver” sounds pretty sexist. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/599 "2015-05-06T22:04:01Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Are you backing off on your sides threat to call people who use the word “thug”, racist? Are you going to call people who use the word “thug” racist, or not? If you’re not, then there’s no reason redefine “thug” as a racial slur. Wow, you **really** don’t understand how language works. I’ve said all along that I personally understand that many people still use the word “thug” in a race-neutral sense and without any racist intent. If I know somebody’s not a racist, I personally am not going to assume they’re a racist just because they use the word “thug” to refer to a black person. **But I don’t get to make the rules about what words mean, or how other people perceive you because of your use of certain words.** Everybody else is gonna use words the way they wanna use them. And as a consequence, the perceived connotations of some words are inevitably going to change. I have been pointing out to you evidence (though not conclusive proof, and I never claimed it **was** conclusive proof) that “thug” is frequently used and understood in a non-race-neutral way. That’s not a “threat”, that’s not “coercion”, that’s not me “redefining” anything. That’s just some facts about current linguistic usage that are causing some people to reconsider whether and how they want to use the word “thug”. If you’re not one of those people, it’s absolutely no skin off my nose. You use whatever words you want, and you cope with other people reacting to however those words sound to them. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2015, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/600 "2015-05-06T22:09:29Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > … **But I don’t get to make the rules about what words mean, or how other people perceive you because of your use of certain words.** (post shortened) That is correct. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959.md?page=31)