# I Steadfastly Reject This Sudden Rush to Redefine "Thug" as a Racial Slur **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 1, 2015, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959 "2015-05-01T03:04:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 37
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2015, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/721 "2015-05-12T20:07:49Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > No particular surprise there. The word police, as self-appointed social justice warriors, know they are free to use the n-word without it causing a tidal wave of condemnation. True dat. We have badges and everything. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2015, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/722 "2015-05-12T20:15:08Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > True dat. We have badges and everything. And secret decoder rings! They decode everything as “nigger,” though. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2015, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/723 "2015-05-12T21:52:51Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > … I also believe that the light-hearted, or friendly, use of the N-word among black people also trivializes the meaning of the N-word… See how that works? > [@doorhinge](#): > > I sometimes wonder how offensive can the N-word be, if some black people use it as a greeting, or self-identification? > … My wife, Morgan Fairchild, wonders about that too. Yeah, that’s the ticket! ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2015, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/724 "2015-05-12T22:20:04Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > True dat. We have badges and everything. And dog whistles for keeping in contact with each other. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2015, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/725 "2015-05-12T22:22:19Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > See how that works? > > My wife, Morgan Fairchild, wonders about that too. Yeah, that’s the ticket! See how what works? You’ll have to be more specific. p.s. Morgan say, Hi. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2015, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/726 "2015-05-12T22:38:47Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > p.s. Morgan say, Hi. I told her that you said Hi, and she said that she didn’t believe you. I told her to join the club. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2015, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/727 "2015-05-12T23:41:23Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > You seem to believe that it’s only inappropriate if white people use the N-word? That seems to be a rather racist position, if you ask me. Sorry. This is a silly claim, the more so in that the matter has been examined on this board on multiple previous occasions. The fact that a word that is insulting to a group may be used by members of that group with fewer social consequences has nothing to do with "race"and everything to do with the dynamics of groups and language. To try to make it a racist judgment is to ignore all social and language conventions in order to arbitrarily pretend that those dynamics only become “racial” in the context of the use of nigger/nigga. I would say that making only that single word stand outside universal in-group/out-group conventions is the better example of racism. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2015, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/728 "2015-05-13T15:25:38Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Sorry. This is a silly claim, the more so in that the matter has been examined on this board on multiple previous occasions. > > The fact that a word that is insulting to a group may be used by members of that group with fewer social consequences has nothing to do with "race"and everything to do with the dynamics of groups and language. To try to make it a racist judgment is to ignore all social and language conventions in order to arbitrarily pretend that those dynamics only become “racial” in the context of the use of nigger/nigga. I would say that making only that single word stand outside universal in-group/out-group conventions is the better example of racism. Silly? I take a chance expressing my personal feelings on an internet website, before a body of complete strangers, and I’m told that it’s silly. Of course it’s silly. Why would anyone expect to have an all-inclusive, robust discussion on an internet website if some questions can not be asked, or opinions stated? I still sometimes wonder how offensive can the N-word be, if some black people use it as a greeting, or self-identification? I still believe that the general use, by any group, of the N-word TRIVIALIZES the meaning of the N-word, as well as ignores the history, and the associated baggage. Outside of this website, I can’t remember the last time I used, or thought of using, the word _nigger_. I understand that the N-word is considered hurtful, and/or disrespectful, and reflects a shameful time in history. I do, but it’s OK if some people to use it??? That’s confusing. Just believe what we tell you to believe, isn’t an answer, nor is it a compelling reason not to ask questions. As to the discussion of the word “thug” now being the new N-word, AFAIK, African “thugs” did not raid nearby villages to capture “thugs” for slavery or sale. Slave traders did not buy “thugs” from the raiders. European nation’s did not purchase “thugs” in order to populate their colonies in the Americas, or elsewhere on the Earth. The U.S.A. did not fight a civil war to free “thugs”. The civil rights movement did not fight for the rights of “thugs”. As silly as it may sound, I steadfastly reject this sudden rush to redefine “thug” as a racial slur until someone can provide a compelling reason that “thug” should be elevated to the level of the N-word. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2015, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/729 "2015-05-13T16:21:58Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > As silly as it may sound, I steadfastly reject this sudden rush to redefine “thug” as a racial slur until someone can provide a compelling reason that “thug” should be elevated to the level of the N-word. I don’t know who is saying that “thug” should be elevated to the status of “nigger”, but I don’t think it should. What I do think is that it’s wise for non-black people to defer to black people with regards to what words might be offensive _to black people_ – just like men should defer to women with regards to what words might be offensive to women. Many/most (but not all) black people that I’ve both heard from and personally interacted with have indicated that “thug” is often used to refer to black people (especially young black men) in ways that seem like a racial slur, and _the opinions of these black people are valid_, as are the opinions of other black people who might disagree. Because I want to be a decent person and avoid both using racial slurs and the appearance of using racial slurs, I will be very careful in using the word “thug” (among other terms), especially when referring to black people. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2015, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/730 "2015-05-13T16:33:53Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Silly? I take a chance expressing my personal feelings on an internet website, before a body of complete strangers, and I’m told that it’s silly. Of course it’s silly. Why would anyone expect to have an all-inclusive, robust discussion on an internet website if some questions can not be asked, or opinions stated? I still sometimes wonder how offensive can the N-word be, if some black people use it as a greeting, or self-identification? I still believe that the general use, by any group, of the N-word TRIVIALIZES the meaning of the N-word, as well as ignores the history, and the associated baggage. What are you whining about, here? I never claimed that you were not allowed to ask a question. You made a single claim, (not question), that it might be “racist” for people to be able to engage in in-group/out-group distinctions regarding an insulting word and I pointed out that that is a silly claim. The notion that black people saying nigger/nigga trivializes the issue with the word is a plausible observation–one which various black people, themselves, have expressed. I did not take issue with that observation. You, however, went further, and expressed something resembling the old racist’s complaint, “If _they_ can say it, why can’t _I_ say it?” That is silly and has been addressed on numerous occasions, (nearly every time some whiny racist has posted that “question” on the SDMB). ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2015, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/731 "2015-05-14T00:31:51Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > What are you whining about, here? I never claimed that you were not allowed to ask a question. > > You made a single claim, (not question), that it might be “racist” for people to be able to engage in in-group/out-group distinctions regarding an insulting word and I pointed out that that is a silly claim. > > The notion that black people saying nigger/nigga trivializes the issue with the word is a plausible observation–one which various black people, themselves, have expressed. I did not take issue with that observation. > > You, however, went further, and expressed something resembling the old racist’s complaint, “If _they_ can say it, why can’t _I_ say it?” That is silly and has been addressed on numerous occasions, (nearly every time some whiny racist has posted that “question” on the SDMB). I’m confused. I made no such claim that it might be “racist” for people to be able to engage in in-group/out-group distinctions regarding an insulting word. That would be a silly claim. I think the situation becomes more confusing when some black people use the N-word as a greeting, or self-identification. More confusing, not “If they can say it, why can’t I say it”. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2015, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/732 "2015-05-14T00:45:08Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > I’m confused. I made no such claim that it might be “racist” for people to be able to engage in in-group/out-group distinctions regarding an insulting word. That would be a silly claim. > > I think the situation becomes more confusing when some black people use the N-word as a greeting, or self-identification. More confusing, not “If they can say it, why can’t I say it”. If you don’t mean “if they can say it, why can’t I say it,” what on earth \*do \*you mean? I’m not sure what you find confusing about an historically oppressed group reclaiming an epithet. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2015, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/733 "2015-05-14T00:49:10Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > I’m confused. I made no such claim that it might be “racist” for people to be able to engage in in-group/out-group distinctions regarding an insulting word. That would be a silly claim. Right… You didn’t post the following: > [@doorhinge](#): > > You seem to believe that it’s only inappropriate if white people use the N-word? That seems to be a rather racist position, if you ask me. ---
**Author:** ![Gerald\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Gerald\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gerald_II)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2015, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/734 "2015-05-14T01:13:14Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > I think the situation becomes more confusing when some black people use the N-word as a greeting, or self-identification. More confusing, not “If they can say it, why can’t I say it”. I think the argument for “if they use the word, why can’t I” is way too simplified. Not all black folks are going to be okay with being referred to as “nigga” just because the person using the word happens to be black too. Obviously the people using it who are black, are using in a context or situation where all parties involved are familiar/comfortable with each other. That not always be the case though, but it’s like when you throw around curse words around friends or people who you feel comfortable using that kind of language with. You’re not intending to be offensive despite the offensive nature of the word. Another distinction is the difference between nigg-er and nigg-a. When some black folks do use the latter word 9 times out of 10, if not always, it’s used in a neutral, if not, affectionate way. I think the confusion only stems from older people who grew up with the N-word used in only one way, and haven’t caught up with the variations and slang usage of modern language. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2015, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/735 "2015-05-14T01:43:33Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Right… You didn’t post the following: That was in response to a conversation I had with **Shin Ji**. **Shin Ji** believes it’s only inappropriate if white people use the N-word. I find that to be rather racist. I believe people should be able to engage in in-group/out-group distinctions. People of all races should be able to engage in in-group/out-group distinctions. But those in-group/out-group distinctions can, and do, create confusion. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2015, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/736 "2015-05-14T01:51:25Z")
> [@Gerald\_II](#): > > I think the argument for “if they use the word, why can’t I” is way too simplified. Not all black folks are going to be okay with being referred to as “nigga” just because the person using the word happens to be black too. Obviously the people using it who are black, are using in a context or situation where all parties involved are familiar/comfortable with each other. That not always be the case though, but it’s like when you throw around curse words around friends or people who you feel comfortable using that kind of language with. You’re not intending to be offensive despite the offensive nature of the word. > > Another distinction is the difference between nigg-er and nigg-a. When some black folks do use the latter word 9 times out of 10, if not always, it’s used in a neutral, if not, affectionate way. > > I think the confusion only stems from older people who grew up with the N-word used in only one way, and haven’t caught up with the variations and slang usage of modern language. Well, that clears everything up then. There should be no more confusion about who can call who what. Until the next time the issue comes up. And you can blame old people. Again. Bottom line, the issue hasn’t gone away, and the problem isn’t solved. IMHO, of course. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2015, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/737 "2015-05-14T01:58:33Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > … There should be no more confusion about who can call who what… There is no confusion about who “can” (as though it were a privilege) call who what. Sorry if you are confused. ---
**Author:** ![Gerald\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Gerald\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gerald_II)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2015, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/738 "2015-05-14T02:03:23Z")
Back to the “thug” term, I think the reason why it’s thrown around a lot is that “thug” has been used by people to describe themselves and their actions in a romanticized way. Rappers popularized the term as a way of self-identification while still maintaining it’s negative connotations. “Before I go broke I’ll be a drug dealer/ the definition of a thug nigga.” And for some reason whites who do the same thing, and act within the same culture are looked down by some whites and blacks, as being “fake” or “wannabes.” They can ascertain the validity of their thug by the color of their skin. Or question their choosing of dress based on their skin color. ex. Sagging pants = thuggin’ it? [youtube link](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_gcoHALjzI) But I agree that thug is being used at times to merely describe someone who is black and the usage becomes racist. I also thought Richard Sherman was acting a little crazy but I didn’t know about the little rivalry between him and Crabtree. I didn’t even see the game. But damn, it was just sports trash talk. But a “thug”? If he was white and doing the same thing I doubt the word “thug” would have been used. Just like how young white males, or young non-gang related males that shoot people are considered mental cases but young black and latino males who happen to be in gangs aren’t really viewed or treated the same way. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2015, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/739 "2015-05-14T02:03:52Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > That was in response to a conversation I had with **Shin Ji**. **Shin Ji** believes it’s only inappropriate if white people use the N-word. Based on what he wrote, this is incorrect. > [@](#): > > I believe people should be able to engage in in-group/out-group distinctions. People of all races should be able to engage in in-group/out-group distinctions. But those in-group/out-group distinctions can, and do, create confusion. Fair enough. Don’t call an African-American a nigger. End of fucking confusion. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2015, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/740 "2015-05-14T02:49:07Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > I believe people should be able to engage in in-group/out-group distinctions. People of all races should be able to engage in in-group/out-group distinctions. But those in-group/out-group distinctions can, and do, create confusion. You are contradicting yourself. You note that the in-group/out-group distinction is valid, but then you claim that censure is racist if the out-group is white people. That makes no sense. Your explanation is still odd: > [@doorhinge](#): > > That was in response to a conversation I had with **Shin Ji**. **Shin Ji** believes it’s only inappropriate if white people use the N-word. I find that to be rather racist. Why did you insert the word “only” into your paraphrase of **Shin Ji** ’s statement? He made no claim that it was only inappropriate for whites. There is no indication in his statement that it would be OK for any other non-white ethnic group to use the words. (And any review of the history of inner city conflicts involving non-European ethnic groups will demonstrate that anyone who is not black, (_i.e._, any out-group person), who employs nigger/nigga in conversation is liable to censure. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959.md?page=36) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959.md?page=38)