# I Steadfastly Reject This Sudden Rush to Redefine "Thug" as a Racial Slur **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 1, 2015, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959 "2015-05-01T03:04:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/61 "2015-05-01T18:36:24Z")
Thug has been a racist dog whistle for like 10 years by now, at least. My favorite is “urban youth.” ---
**Author:** ![MikeF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MikeF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeF)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/62 "2015-05-01T18:52:46Z")
“Just stop calling people thugs, hoodlums, trailer trash, criminals, illegals, etc, and refer to them as people. Problem solved.” Is this a serious idea or was I “whooshed”? Can we not call someone a criminal until after they have been convicted in court? If you are burning down buildings and stealing shit you are a …? What? What do you call them? Just “People burning down buildings and stealing shit”? That’s quite a mouthful. I think I’ll call a spade a spade (no racism or pun intended) and call them criminals and thugs. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/63 "2015-05-01T19:22:22Z")
> [@OldOlds](#): > > I have had my share of encounters with racists, even have a few as in-laws, and I simply have never heard this word used as code. Actually, the word I think I hear used most that way is “brothers.” As in, “The brothers are upset.” Always uttered by someone whom I feel to be racist, probably because it seems safe to them. I don’t hear anyone saying that we can’t use that word anymore. :dubious: Yikes. I, for one, am perfectly happy to go on record as saying we can’t use “the brothers” to refer to random groups of black people who don’t happen to be fraternally related. And yeah, I’ve noticed the word “thug” devolving into dogwhistle for “young black man” for a while now. It’s somewhere in between “media elites” as dogwhistle for “Jews” and “hos” as dogwhistle for “young black women”. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/64 "2015-05-01T19:42:31Z")
I’ve been teaching in urban high schools for over a decade, and “thug” has implied “tough black gangsta-kinda kid” for as long as I’ve been here. It sometimes is applied to a hispanic or white or Asian, kid, but only if you want to imply that he’s acting like a “tough black gangsta-kinda kid”. I can totally believe that if you live and work in suburbia you don’t come across this usage, but it’s absolutely a real thing. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/65 "2015-05-01T19:46:09Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > “hos” as dogwhistle for “young black women”. Who later become “Welfare queens”. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/66 "2015-05-01T19:53:15Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I’ve been teaching in urban high schools for over a decade, and “thug” has implied “tough black gangsta-kinda kid” for as long as I’ve been here. It sometimes is applied to a hispanic or white or Asian, kid, but only if you want to imply that he’s acting like a “tough black gangsta-kinda kid”. > > I can totally believe that if you live and work in suburbia you don’t come across this usage, but it’s absolutely a real thing. Yes, though like I said earlier I think the issue here is when the label is self applied (or when a group self identifies with a label or what a label implies) verse when someone outside applies the same label in perhaps a derogatory way. I guess people outside of the culture don’t realize that the label of thug has been something that’s self applied and an ideal (so to speak) for a long time now…or why someone else, from the outside applying it might hit a raw nerve. I can totally see why people are pissed off to have that label applied to them by outsiders who don’t know what they are saying (or, maybe do and are using it as a broad brush). Regardless, this isn’t a ‘Sudden Rush to Redefine "Thug’ as a Racial Slur’. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/67 "2015-05-01T20:19:26Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Racists are going to be racists. Take “thug” away from the racists, and they’ll just find another term to use. But it’s a legitimate, English\* word going back centuries, and I’m not going to let the racists claim it as their own. Bravely spoken, King Canute. But I don’t think it’s going to work. Usually, once non-bigots begin to notice that bigots are using a formerly neutral term as a dogwhistle for bigotry, the neutrality of the term has already taken a severe and irreversible hit. The people being dogwhistled about have generally started to recognize the word as a dogwhistle. I’m not saying that you’re being racist for wanting to keep using the word “thug” as a race-neutral term, and I’m not going to call you racist if you do keep using it, because I know what you mean by it. I’m just saying that as time goes by, it’s going to become more and more likely that people who don’t know you will think that using the word “thug” makes you sound like a racist. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/68 "2015-05-01T20:41:23Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I’ve been teaching in urban high schools for over a decade, and “thug” has implied “tough black gangsta-kinda kid” for as long as I’ve been here. It sometimes is applied to a hispanic or white or Asian, kid, but only if you want to imply that he’s acting like a “tough black gangsta-kinda kid”. > > I can totally believe that if you live and work in suburbia you don’t come across this usage, but it’s absolutely a real thing. But I’m not seeing how that makes it racist. If I and my peers use “Suburbanite” to mean _dorky, white, khaki-wearing office dweller whose life is pretty well devoid of excitement or meaning, consuming wealth and resources without purpose_, does that make it unacceptable for a black urban college professor talking-head on PBS to talk about the “suburbanite” vote, or how “suburbanites” vote their self-interest to the detriment of the urban community? “Suburbanite” is still a perfectly reasonable and valid descriptor, even though my community has added our own meaning. I realize that suburbanite lacks the negative denotation of thug, but there is a negative connotation. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/69 "2015-05-01T21:10:18Z")
> [@OldOlds](#): > > But I’m not seeing how that makes it racist. If I and my peers use “Suburbanite” to mean _dorky, white, khaki-wearing office dweller whose life is pretty well devoid of excitement or meaning, consuming wealth and resources without purpose_, does that make it unacceptable for a black urban college professor talking-head on PBS to talk about the “suburbanite” vote, or how “suburbanites” vote their self-interest to the detriment of the urban community? “Suburbanite” is still a perfectly reasonable and valid descriptor, even though my community has added our own meaning. It’s when the term gets detached from a specific type of **behavior** and starts becoming code for **racial category** that its acceptability is called into question. Cf. [Jon Stewart’s comments on media use of “thug”](http://www.thewrap.com/jon-stewart-richard-shermans-thug-justin-bieber-rob-ford-arent-vide/): > [@](#): > > Canadian Justin Bieber, already in hot water for a DUI, has been accused of assaulting a limousine driver. That’s not all. Rob Ford, the crack smoking mayor of Toronto, is now being sued for allegedly having his sister’s ex-boyfriend, Scott MacIntyre, beaten up in prison to keep him quiet about the mayor’s abuse of drugs and alcohol. […] > > For the most part, the media is laughing it off and treating Bieber and Ford’s indiscretions as sources of merriment. > > “They’re just a couple of playful scamps accused of committing major felonies,” Stewart said. “It’s not like they said things loudly in a post-game celebratory interview.” > > In contrast, commentators have come down hard on Seattle Seahawks cornerback Richard Sherman for his trash-talking rant earlier this month about San Francisco 49ers receiver Michael Crabtree. His comments that Crabtree is a “sorry receiver” came after beating the team in the NFC Championship and have left many in the media branding the African-American player a “thug.” > > “Yeah, that’s right, Richard Sherman is a thug,” Stewart said. “The thugs aren’t the dudes accused of actual violent crimes, it’s the Stanford-educated cornerback who talked too loud after the game." I get the point about wanting to preserve the useful word “thug” to refer to brutal violent people irrespective of their race. But when _common usage has shifted to the point where “thug” is routinely applied in the media to black people who **aren’t** committing violence but withheld from white people who **are** committing violence_, then I think that ship may have sailed. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/70 "2015-05-01T21:31:49Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I get the point about wanting to preserve the useful word “thug” to refer to brutal violent people irrespective of their race. But when _common usage has shifted to the point where “thug” is routinely applied in the media to black people who **aren’t** committing violence but withheld from white people who **are** committing violence_, then I think that ship may have sailed. I do not see any evidence that “common usage” has shifted n any way. Note the Google hits posted previously. While there was a slightly heavier association with blacks than whites, there was no preponderance of black over white usage. I am particularly amused that the cries that this word is terrible is first directed at a black president and a black mayor. Given that the Baltimore police immediately launched an investigation into Gray’s treatment by members of their own organization and given that the riots destroyed property in mostly black neighborhoods, Councilman Stokes and Reverend Bryant strike me as just stupid. There is not (yet) any evidence of a cover up and burning one’s own or one’s neighbor’s business does little to call attention to racism and much to confirm the racist beliefs of those who hold them. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/71 "2015-05-01T21:39:36Z")
> [@OldOlds](#): > > But I’m not seeing how that makes it racist. If I and my peers use “Suburbanite” to mean _dorky, white, khaki-wearing office dweller whose life is pretty well devoid of excitement or meaning, consuming wealth and resources without purpose_, does that make it unacceptable for a black urban college professor talking-head on PBS to talk about the “suburbanite” vote, or how “suburbanites” vote their self-interest to the detriment of the urban community? “Suburbanite” is still a perfectly reasonable and valid descriptor, even though my community has added our own meaning. > > I realize that suburbanite lacks the negative denotation of thug, but there is a negative connotation. But I don’t think “suburbanite” implies “white”. It implies a member of the middle class, it implies white collar job, it implies a certain type of provincialism, and yes, it’s mildly insulting, but it doesn’t imply race. “Thug”, at least the way it’s broadly used in my experience. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/72 "2015-05-01T22:00:37Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I do not see any evidence that “common usage” has shifted n any way. Really? For example, in [a Yahoo Answers question](https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090710085226AAbEz6s): > [@](#): > > Why do black women allow their little boys to look like thugs? With the dreads and all.? [“McDonald’s In Houston Ban Sagging Pants Angers The Hood! (Thugs Aren’t Lovin’ It!)”](http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/video.php?v=wshhbuLX80Znm6PAPNpN) And I’m not going to click on or link to any of the sites that advertise cinematic performances by “Hot Young Thugs XXX”, but rest assured that there are lots of them. None of the black boys and young men referenced or shown in connection with such uses of “thug” are committing any kind of violence or brutality. _The word “thug” is being used in these cases not to mean people who are actually brutal and violent, but to signify black boys and young men who wear certain kinds of extreme fashions or have a certain kind of swaggering attitude._ In contrast, white boys or young men who swagger around in loud groups with silly clothing and hairstyles are generally described as “dudebro” or “fratboy” types or “party animals”, not as “thugs”. That kind of racial distinction is what makes me think that “thug” is on its way to becoming primarily a racist epithet, despite the facts that its original meaning is race-neutral and a lot of people still want to use it in a race-neutral way. > [@tomndebb](#): > > I am particularly amused that the cries that this word is terrible is first directed at a black president and a black mayor. I don’t get the joke. What’s funny about that? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/73 "2015-05-01T22:15:39Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Bravely spoken, King Canute. But I don’t think it’s going to work. > > Usually, once non-bigots begin to notice that bigots are using a formerly neutral term as a dogwhistle for bigotry, the neutrality of the term has already taken a severe and irreversible hit. The people being dogwhistled about have generally started to recognize the word as a dogwhistle. > > I’m not saying that you’re being racist for wanting to keep using the word “thug” as a race-neutral term, and I’m not going to call you racist if you do keep using it, because I know what you mean by it. > > I’m just saying that as time goes by, it’s going to become more and more likely that people who don’t know you will think that using the word “thug” makes you sound like a racist. Well, that’s their problem, not mine. I’m not going to parse my vocabulary because of what someone else might think. If someone is acting like a thug, I reserve the right to call them a thug regardless of their race. Now, if people who would normally use ‘thug" DO change their actions because of what idiots think, then those people are contributing to the idiots’ taking over the use of that word. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/74 "2015-05-01T22:33:27Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If someone is acting like a thug, I reserve the right to call them a thug regardless of their race. Fair enough. If somebody is wearing saggy pants and dreadlocks and a backwards baseball cap and boasting and arguing loudly with their friends on a street corner, are they “acting like a thug”? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/75 "2015-05-01T22:39:47Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > …And yeah, I’ve noticed the word “thug” devolving into dogwhistle for “young black man” for a while now. It’s somewhere in between “media elites” as dogwhistle for “Jews” and “hos” as dogwhistle for “young black women”. I didn’t know that “media elites” meant Jews. Or maybe I should say that I didn’t know you consider “media elites” to mean Jews? Isn’t “hos” a common term in many rap songs? Debbie Harry should be ashamed of herself for debuting the rap video on MTV. I wonder if she would have done it if she knew it would eventually lead to “young black women” being repeatedly called “hos” by rap musicians? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/76 "2015-05-01T22:40:25Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > None of the black boys and young men referenced or shown in connection with such uses of “thug” are committing any kind of violence or brutality. _The word “thug” is being used in these cases not to mean people who are actually brutal and violent, but to signify black boys and young men who wear certain kinds of extreme fashions or have a certain kind of swaggering attitude._ This, of course, ignores the fact that those clothing choices are a direct emulation of styles popularized by criminals. (Low hanging pants, for example, being an effort to emulate the condition of prisoners whose belts have been removed, and so on.) As to the “joke,” I suppose that it is more tragic than humorous that some twits are accusing prominent black people of racism when those black leaders are condemning senseless violence that has harmed more black citizens than white citizens. Perhaps I should have employed the word "ridiculous,"noting that such people should be the subject of scornful laughter. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/77 "2015-05-01T22:48:33Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > That’s the thing about language. If people start using a word as a racial slur, it becomes a racial slur, irrespective of its previous meanings or connotations. Hmm, I made this same point about _Cisgender_. But you seem to disagree there, eh? No matter how useful it is, no matter it’s origins- if it’s a hate slur, it’s a hate slur. Right? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/78 "2015-05-01T22:59:12Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Fair enough. If somebody is wearing saggy pants and dreadlocks and a backwards baseball cap and boasting and arguing loudly with their friends on a street corner, are they “acting like a thug”? Are they acting violently, or committing acts of violence? If not, then they are not “acting like a thug” according to the generally acceptable dictionary definition of the word “thug”. People who are ignorant of the generally acceptable dictionary definition of the word thug, can chose to remain ignorant, or they can make up their own definition for the word. I do not have to accept their made-up definition. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Terrific](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tom_terrific/32/342_2.png) [@Tom\_Terrific](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Terrific)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/79 "2015-05-01T23:02:13Z")
I guess we could all go to using the term “those people” or “you people” instead of calling them thugs. I’m sure that everyone would then be happy with the language used. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/80 "2015-05-02T01:59:27Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > That’s the thing about language. If people start using a word as a racial slur, it becomes a racial slur, irrespective of its previous meanings or connotations. Agreed. It’s not quite the same but I’m reminded of people whining about how the word “gay” was now associated with “homosexuals” and this somehow ruined Christmas traditions because kids started snickering at the use of the phrase “Don we now our gay apparel”. Languages and words evolve. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959.md?page=5)