# I Steadfastly Reject This Sudden Rush to Redefine "Thug" as a Racial Slur **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 1, 2015, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959 "2015-05-01T03:04:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/81 "2015-05-02T02:21:52Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I can totally believe that if you live and work in suburbia you don’t come across this usage, but it’s absolutely a real thing. Rural America is playing catch-up. Again. Moo. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/82 "2015-05-02T02:23:28Z")
I just want to reiterate that I accept words evolve. I am rejecting the claim that this word has already evolved to a racial slur. I can accept that a specific group has adopted it for their term meaning “Cool Black Badass” (something I am learning from this thread), but that doesn’t mean that the population at large sees it that way, nor that this adoption makes it a slur when used by someone not of that group. I think that this is outrage looking for an outlet. If the word used had been any other pejorative, there would have been a similar outrage, possibly with a different rationale attached. People said negative things about a bunch of opportunists who did bad things. And a bunch of apologists have found a way to shame those people. And remarkably, they have succeeded. What they wanted to hear was “poor marginalized urban residents who have been fucked over so often that they lashed out in an unfortunate but understandable way.” Anything more harshly judgmental is racist (to the people complaining about the use of the word thug). ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/83 "2015-05-02T02:32:39Z")
> [@OldOlds](#): > > I just want to reiterate that I accept words evolve. I am rejecting the claim that this word has already evolved to a racial slur. I can accept that a specific group has adopted it for their term meaning “Cool Black Badass” (something I am learning from this thread), but that doesn’t mean that the population at large sees it that way, nor that this adoption makes it a slur when used by someone not of that group. “Cool black badass” is not the redefinition of thug that’s under discussion in this thread. The usage that people are objecting to is “thug” as “any young black male.” Also, no one’s arguing that all uses of the word “thug” should, from now on, be treated just like the word “nigger.” What people are pointing out is that certain segments of society have, for some time now, been using “thug” as a catchall for any young black male, and _that particular usage_ is racist. > [@](#): > > People said negative things about a bunch of opportunists who did bad things. And a bunch of apologists have found a way to shame those people. And remarkably, they have succeeded. If people had been using the word only to describe people who were acting in a violent or criminal matter, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. But some people have not been so circumspect in their usage. “Thug” is routinely used in the media to dismiss all of the protestors at Ferguson and Baltimore, not just the ones who were looting shops. That’s the usage that’s racist, and that’s the usage that people are calling out. > [@](#): > > What they wanted to hear was “poor marginalized urban residents who have been fucked over so often that they lashed out in an unfortunate but understandable way.” Anything more harshly judgmental is racist (to the people complaining about the use of the word thug). Well, I can see you’re clearly approaching this conversation with an open mind. ---
**Author:** ![AtomicDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@AtomicDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AtomicDog)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/84 "2015-05-02T02:45:13Z")
[Isn’t he such a cute little thug?](http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6903332) I rest my case. ---
**Author:** ![mrldii](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e4f/32.png) [@mrldii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrldii)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/85 "2015-05-02T02:58:17Z")
> [@AtomicDog](#): > > [Isn’t he such a cute little thug?](http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6903332) > I rest my case. For the record, I would have been equally shocked and offended if someone had said of my 2-YO (or any aged, for that matter) white son, “What a cute little shit!” but I wouldn’t have automatically taken it as a “racial slur”; I would have taken THAT as an ignorant and inappropriate usage of another _English_ word, too. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/86 "2015-05-02T03:12:54Z")
Is “thug” really that great of a word? Christ, new words enter our vocabulary all the time. I can’t even keep up with them. If a word is bothering people then shitcan the god damned word. Easy peasy. Here’s a new one to take its place: > [@](#): > > jank > (adjective) : very annoying or unpleasant > > This homework we have tonight is jank! I’m not going to do it! > > Submitted by: Maddie Nowosielski from Michigan on Apr. 23, 2015 12:45 And there was a whole fucking page of new words along with “jank”. Help yourself. ETA: sorry, I inadvertently channelled Lewis Black. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/87 "2015-05-02T03:22:23Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > That’s the thing about language. If people start using a word as a racial slur, it becomes a racial slur, irrespective of its previous meanings or connotations. And yet I dont accept ‘activist judge’ or ‘socialist’ as a slur just because a group uses it as one. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/88 "2015-05-02T03:32:04Z")
I believe that part of the issue is that “thug” is indeed being used as a racial epithet, as a substitute for “nigger”: [http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/12/06/i-was-a-st-louis-cop-my-peers-were-racist-and-violent-and-theres-only-one-fix/](http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/12/06/i-was-a-st-louis-cop-my-peers-were-racist-and-violent-and-theres-only-one-fix/) > [@](#): > > One example: A couple of officers ran a Web site called St. Louis Coptalk, where officers could post about their experience and opinions. At some point during my career, it became so full of racist rants that the site administrator temporarily shut it down. Cops routinely called anyone of color a “thug,” whether they were the victim or just a bystander. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/89 "2015-05-02T04:15:35Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Its origin is in India. Thuggees were followers of Kali who killed people as sacrifices to their Goddess. And being as a man’s got to eat, they stole the possessions from the people they killed. > [@jezzaOZ](#): > > People seem to forget that “Thug” originally meant a scary black man (or brown depending on the part of India they came from) > > The original thugs were murderers and robbers, so quite a bit worse on the scale compared to current usage. Incorrect. The Thugs were simply cut-throat thieves. Their motivation for killing was robbery, plain and simple. Worship of Kali was popular among the Thugs, but there were also many Muslims, Christians and Atheists in their number. Kali is a popular goddess in India, her followers are not required to commit ritual murder. She is sometimes depicted as a benevolent mother figure, and sometimes as a heroic warrior fighting and destroying an army of evil demons. The Thugs weren’t all black/brown, there were many white members in the gangs. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/90 "2015-05-02T06:23:21Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > Let’s use google as a semantic association network to provide us with helpful data. > > “[black thug](https://www.google.ca/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=%22black%20thug%22)” - 624,000 results > “[white thug](https://www.google.ca/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=%22white%20thug%22)” - 375,000 results > > [“trayvon martin” thug](https://www.google.ca/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=%22trayvon%20martin%22%20thug) - 381,000 results > [“george zimmerman” thug](https://www.google.ca/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=%22george+zimmerman%22+thug) - 215,000 results > > Well that settles it for me. A black murder victim is more likely to be assoiated with the word thug then his white killer. It is a racially tinged word. Nazi thug gets 484.000 hits. I though it was a word mostly used for Nazi browshirts and skinheads and such. Whatever, Americans are funny. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/91 "2015-05-02T11:33:41Z")
Perhaps we should stop calling looters thugs, and call them patriots instead: [Rumsfeld: Looting is transition to freedom](http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Security-Industry/2003/04/11/Rumsfeld-Looting-is-transition-to-freedom/63821050097983/) > [@](#): > > “While no one condones looting, on the other hand, one can understand the pent-up feelings that may result from decades of repression and people who have had members of their family killed by that regime, for them to be taking their feelings out on that regime,” he said. “And I don’t think there’s anyone in any of those pictures … (who wouldn’t) accept it as part of the price of getting from a repressed regime to freedom.” > > Rumsfeld said in the United States there has been looting and riots and they eventually come under control. > > “Think what’s happened in our cities when we’ve had riots and problems and looting. Stuff happens!” ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/92 "2015-05-02T11:55:43Z")
“Thug” is like “boy.” Both words can be used to refer to non-black people with no racialized connotations. But both, when used against black people, tap into a history and complex of connotations such that they can’t be used without racist effects. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/93 "2015-05-02T11:59:24Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Really? For example, in > None of the black boys and young men referenced or shown in connection with such uses of “thug” are committing any kind of violence or brutality. _The word “thug” is being used in these cases not to mean people who are actually brutal and violent, but to signify black boys and young men who wear certain kinds of extreme fashions or have a certain kind of swaggering attitude._ To expand on this, the use the word “thug” to describe poor, young black men–which is who wears those fashions/adopts that body language–carries a connotation that poor, young black men are more prone to stupid, mindless violence than dude-bros. And in certain circles, it’s certainly code for the n-word. And that assumption–that poor young black men are violent–is the root of all of this, which makes it particularly unfortunate that people are (I am willing to believe, unknowingly) using a term that is loaded with racial implications. What I do not understand is people refusing to believe that this usage even exists, or that it’s only known to some small sliver of the population. That’s just not the case. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/94 "2015-05-02T13:08:40Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > As to the “joke,” I suppose that it is more tragic than humorous that some twits are accusing prominent black people of racism when those black leaders are condemning senseless violence that has harmed more black citizens than white citizens. Perhaps I should have employed the word "ridiculous,"noting that such people should be the subject of scornful laughter. This is a childishly naive view of how racism works. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/95 "2015-05-02T14:30:41Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > This is a childishly naive view of how racism works. When someone posts how their opponents’ arguments amuse them, I imagine toddlers laughing and giggling at the bright colors in a chart that they can’t read. It’s almost never a sign of erudition when someone posts about the amusement engendered by an argument. I’m a little confused: folks that reject the “redefinition” of thug as a racial slur, do you genuinely think that the word isn’t often used as a racial slur? If you think it is used this way, then be a fuckin descriptivist already and recognize that the word’s been redefined, not by politically correct people, but by racists using the word in that manner. But remember that words can have multiple definitions. “Colored” is a racial slur sometimes, but not in all contexts: when my daughter colored a picture last night, there wasn’t a racial slur involved. Just be aware that the word DOES have a racially-tinged usage–i.e., definition–associated with it, and use the word carefully so that your audience doesn’t think you’re using the racist meaning of the word, unless that’s what you intend. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/96 "2015-05-02T15:10:42Z")
I don’t really care about “thug,” but this thread has me slam wore out on “dogwhistle.” ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/97 "2015-05-02T15:22:30Z")
Ironically “dog whistle” has become the “dog whistle” of the liberal. Its the new favorite word around here. It means “there are what WE consider racists here…gather round and start the fightin”. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/98 "2015-05-02T15:38:37Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > When someone posts how their opponents’ arguments amuse them, I imagine toddlers laughing and giggling at the bright colors in a chart that they can’t read. It’s almost never a sign of erudition when someone posts about the amusement engendered by an argument. > > I’m a little confused: folks that reject the “redefinition” of thug as a racial slur, do you genuinely think that the word isn’t often used as a racial slur? If you think it is used this way, then be a fuckin descriptivist already and recognize that the word’s been redefined, not by politically correct people, but by racists using the word in that manner. > > But remember that words can have multiple definitions. “Colored” is a racial slur sometimes, but not in all contexts: when my daughter colored a picture last night, there wasn’t a racial slur involved. Just be aware that the word DOES have a racially-tinged usage–i.e., definition–associated with it, and use the word carefully so that your audience doesn’t think you’re using the racist meaning of the word, unless that’s what you intend. I don’t worry about what ignorant people think about things I say. If I use the word “thug” I trust that intelligent people, like you, will NOT assume there is a racist overtone unless you have good reason to think so. And I trust myself enough to think that I won’t give you good reason to think so. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/99 "2015-05-02T15:50:57Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I’ve been teaching in urban high schools for over a decade, and “thug” has implied “tough black gangsta-kinda kid” for as long as I’ve been here. It sometimes is applied to a hispanic or white or Asian, kid, but only if you want to imply that he’s acting like a “tough black gangsta-kinda kid”. > > I can totally believe that if you live and work in suburbia you don’t come across this usage, but it’s absolutely a real thing. That’s exactly right…it the word is referring to a stereotype, and an element of that stereotype is being black. If someone says a white kid is “acting/dressed like a thug,” that’s code for “acting/dressed black/gangsta/ghetto.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/100 "2015-05-02T15:56:45Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > That’s exactly right…it the word is referring to a stereotype, and an element of that stereotype is being black. If someone says a white kid is “acting/dressed like a thug,” that’s code for “acting/dressed black/gangsta/ghetto.” I guess I was never given the secret decoder ring, because that’s not what I mean when I use the term. If I said a white kid was acting like a thug, it would be because he was… believe it or not… ACTING LIKE A THUG. There is such a thing as “acting like a thug”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959.md?page=6)