# I Steadfastly Reject This Sudden Rush to Redefine "Thug" as a Racial Slur **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 1, 2015, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959 "2015-05-01T03:04:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/101 "2015-05-02T15:57:19Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > When someone posts how their opponents’ arguments amuse them, I imagine toddlers laughing and giggling at the bright colors in a chart that they can’t read. It’s almost never a sign of erudition when someone posts about the amusement engendered by an argument. > > I’m a little confused: folks that reject the “redefinition” of thug as a racial slur, do you genuinely think that the word isn’t often used as a racial slur? If you think it is used this way, then be a fuckin descriptivist already and recognize that the word’s been redefined, not by politically correct people, but by racists using the word in that manner. > > But remember that words can have multiple definitions. “Colored” is a racial slur sometimes, but not in all contexts: when my daughter colored a picture last night, there wasn’t a racial slur involved. Just be aware that the word DOES have a racially-tinged usage–i.e., definition–associated with it, and use the word carefully so that your audience doesn’t think you’re using the racist meaning of the word, unless that’s what you intend. Here’s my answer on why I am having trouble accepting it. Until two days ago, I had never, ever heard it used as code, nor had I heard anyone complain about it’s usage. We have some people in this thread doing contortions- saying that its racial tones come from people in the black community using it on each other as they would the n-word, and somehow that (in part) puts it off-limits for other groups. Personally, I have an issue in general with people deciding that a word is OK for one group to use but not another, although that’s a different debate. This has completely come out of the blue for me, and I’m a pretty liberal, well-read guy who actually, you know, pays attention to the world around me. I wonder if there were a scholarly way to measure it, if we wouldn’t find that government/police are the most common targets of the word. Youth in general are more likely to be seen as thugs, and that’s probably as old as old people. I have seen Putin regularly referred to as a thug- is it only OK if the target is white? The question isn’t whether we can find some instances of thug used as a slur, the question is whether its a common usage. And so far I haven’t seen evidence of it. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/102 "2015-05-02T15:59:53Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I don’t worry about what ignorant people think about things I say. If I use the word “thug” I trust that intelligent people, like you, will NOT assume there is a racist overtone unless you have good reason to think so. And I trust myself enough to think that I won’t give you good reason to think so. If you come into my high school and are talking to my students-most of whom are freakishly brilliant-and you use the term “thug”, they are going to assume you mean the racial overtones. Because that’s how it’s used by the youth, especially in cities. It’s not ignorant people have the “wrong” meaning vs intelligent people have the “right” one. It’s a meaning that is context specific. And when someone is speaking on a national stage, they should be aware of that and chose their words based on an understanding of how they would be heard. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/103 "2015-05-02T16:02:26Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > If you come into my high school and are talking to my students-most of whom are freakishly brilliant-and you use the term “thug”, they are going to assume you mean the racial overtones. Because that’s how it’s used by the youth, especially in cities. It’s not ignorant people have the “wrong” meaning vs intelligent people have the “right” one. It’s a meaning that is context specific. And when someone is speaking on a national stage, they should be aware of that and chose their words based on an understanding of how they would be heard. Sounds like they are not so “freakishly brilliant”, at least when it comes to linguistics. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/104 "2015-05-02T16:13:03Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I don’t worry about what ignorant people think about things I say. If I use the word “thug” I trust that intelligent people, like you, will NOT assume there is a racist overtone unless you have good reason to think so. And I trust myself enough to think that I won’t give you good reason to think so. That’s fine, and I don’t know of anyone who’s arguing that the word is completely off-limits. However, if I encounter you using the word “thug” primarily in reference to African American men, you betcha I’ll consider that a good reason to suspect racist overtones. That is, after all, one of the ways the word gets used. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/105 "2015-05-02T16:18:24Z")
> [@OldOlds](#): > > Here’s my answer on why I am having trouble accepting it. > > Until two days ago, I had never, ever heard it used as code, nor had I heard anyone complain about it’s usage. How do you know you hadn’t heard it used as a code? That’s sort of the point of codes, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/106 "2015-05-02T16:18:34Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > “Thug” is like “boy.” Both words can be used to refer to non-black people with no racialized connotations. But both, when used against black people, tap into a history and complex of connotations such that they can’t be used without racist effects. > [@Sarahfeena](#): > > That’s exactly right…it the word is referring to a stereotype, and an element of that stereotype is being black. If someone says a white kid is “acting/dressed like a thug,” that’s code for “acting/dressed black/gangsta/ghetto.” > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > That’s fine, and I don’t know of anyone who’s arguing that the word is completely off-limits. Frylock says it should be off-limits when referring to blacks and Sarafeena says that anytime you call a white kid a thug that you’re using code. I’d say that close enough to saying it’s off-limits. > [@](#): > > However, if I encounter you using the word “thug” primarily in reference to African American men, you betcha I’ll consider that a good reason to suspect racist overtones. That is, after all, one of the ways the word gets used. You keep score? Well, whatever rocks your boat! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/107 "2015-05-02T16:23:09Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Frylock says it should be off-limits when referring to blacks and Sarafeena says that anytime you call a white kid a thug that you’re using code. I’d say that close enough to saying it’s off-limits. I’ll let them clarify, but I don’t think you’ve exactly got what they’re saying. > [@](#): > > You keep score? Well, whatever rocks your boat! 😉 The alternative is to treat each use of the word in isolation, which means that I’m a lot likelier to conclude any use of “thug” to apply to a black person implicates the racist definition. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/108 "2015-05-02T16:24:41Z")
Linguistics doesn’t say that words are defined solely by the thoughts in the speaker’s head. The social context and the experience of the listeners also play a role. And I also don’t think that anyone is saying that all uses of the word “thug” are racist. It’s a growing acknowledgment in the general public that it has been adopted for racist uses by a slowly growing group of people. No one is “redefining” it as a racial slur. They are spreading awareness of its growing use as one. As an aside, regarding etymology, it originated in “thak,” meaning “trickster” or “deceiver.” The m.o. of thaks was to befriend travelers and when they least expected it to strangle them with a special cloth with a coin attached at one end. The ritual killing was supposedly in devotion to Kali, but of course the thaks—who usually worked in small groups rather than individually— would get to keep the proceeds. Membership in the cult was secret. In his home village, a thak might hold a position of authority or trust. And as said above, thaks were a tiny minority of those who worshipped Kali. Kali is very popular, particularly in Bengal, and particularly among the upper classes of Bengal. In Bengal, blood sacrifice to Kali is still practiced—goats usually. Of course the goats are subsequently eaten. Goat meat is a common component of Bengali cuisine. Most other Hindu deities are given only vegetarian offerings. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/109 "2015-05-02T16:44:22Z")
I, for one, have no sense or appreciation of context, and use each and every word only with the most strict dictionary definition in mind. There is no such thing as a dog whistle, except, you know, the literal dog whistle. I never so much as wink conspiritorially after using certain words. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c57346/32.png) [@Little\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Pig)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/110 "2015-05-02T18:03:22Z")
[The color of ‘thug’.](http://www.sfchronicle.com/opinion/editorials/article/The-color-of-the-word-thug-6236568.php) ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/111 "2015-05-02T18:04:25Z")
There’s more going on here than just the meaning of a particular word. A certain faction likes the fact that certain young criminals are sticking it to The Man and all, but they’re not quite ballsy enough to come out and say it. The most they can bring themselves to do is put on an etiquette class to try to limit others’ ability to criticize said criminals. If people stopped calling them thugs and started calling them hoodlums, then they would say you can’t call them hoodlums, either. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/112 "2015-05-02T18:10:49Z")
I always associated thug more with white criminals. Muggers, bullies, and so on. Often tattooed, bald and very,very big! Like a bouncer at a bar. They are often thugs. ---
**Author:** ![AtomicDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@AtomicDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AtomicDog)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/113 "2015-05-02T18:11:14Z")
> [@Little\_Pig](#): > > [The color of ‘thug’.](http://www.sfchronicle.com/opinion/editorials/article/The-color-of-the-word-thug-6236568.php) Since the article is behind a paywall, perhaps you can elaborate. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c57346/32.png) [@Little\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Pig)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/114 "2015-05-02T18:14:46Z")
The link should have gotten you around the paywall. If not for you, then Google The color of ‘thug’. That should get you around the paywall. ---
**Author:** ![iljitsch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/77aa72/32.png) [@iljitsch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iljitsch)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/115 "2015-05-02T18:19:01Z")
You are being a very lazy thug. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/116 "2015-05-02T18:32:01Z")
Of course what is involved is a degree of resistance to our law enforcement system’s decades-long policy to create a “criminal class” in the first place, to label people as members of this class to justify any degree of oppression against them. It’s a vicious circle. Policy pushes people towards criminal acts. Criminal acts define you as a criminal. Further oppressive policies are justified against members of a criminal class. That’s why we hear “he was no angel.” Anything you do to a non-angel is justified. But that’s a distraction. Even non-Angels—especially them—have rights. ---
**Author:** ![AtomicDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@AtomicDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AtomicDog)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/117 "2015-05-02T18:35:27Z")
If you want us to know that you think, tell us. If you don’t, I have better things to do. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/118 "2015-05-02T18:40:07Z")
So if I’m following this correctly, it went something like this; 1. Black criminals adopt the word “thug” to describe themselves 2. White pundits refer to black criminals by their chosen term 3. Blacks decry the use of that term as racist Is that about right? ---
**Author:** ![Emtar\_KronJonDerSohn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/58956e/32.png) [@Emtar\_KronJonDerSohn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emtar_KronJonDerSohn)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/119 "2015-05-02T18:51:21Z")
> [@Little\_Pig](#): > > The link should have gotten you around the paywall. If not for you, then Google > > The color of ‘thug’. > > That should get you around the paywall. It probably gets _you_ around the paywall because you have a cookie indicating registration or a subscription or whatnot. Anyway, isn’t this explicitly against boards rules? Just shoving a link (even a _working_ link) out into the world like an orphaned puppy without any opinion or commentary or question whatsoever? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2015, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959/120 "2015-05-02T18:54:18Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I always associated thug more with white criminals. Muggers, bullies, and so on. Yeah, this. If I don’t think of the Indian stranglers, I think of a certain cartoon character; for example, ‘Nick’ from the Bugs Bunny cartoons, who was the henchman of ‘Mugsy’ before ‘Rocky’ took his place. When I hear ‘thug’, I generally think of a cartoon of a large White guy with five o’clock shadow, wearing a cheap suit coat over a turtleneck sweater, and an ‘English driving cap’. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-steadfastly-reject-this-sudden-rush-to-redefine-thug-as-a-racial-slur/718959.md?page=7)