# I support the cause of the pro-Palestinian protestors **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [April 27, 2024, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-support-the-cause-of-the-pro-palestinian-protestors/1000841 "2024-04-27T14:24:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-support-the-cause-of-the-pro-palestinian-protestors/1000841/201 "2024-05-08T03:35:57Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@Broomstick](#): > > > > Palestinians _in Gaza_ voted for Hamas in 2006 and they were not at all unanimous. > > The war is in Gaza and no election is 100%. While all Gazans are Palestinians not all Palestinians are Gazan. The distinction can be important. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-support-the-cause-of-the-pro-palestinian-protestors/1000841/202 "2024-05-08T03:44:39Z")
The cease fire deal that Hamas agreed to was not accepted. Israel’s deal was release 33 hostages- starting with women, children and the scik, and quickly. Hamas changed that to 33 bodies- including dead hostages, and much slower. So Hams had a decent chance for a ceasefire- one that Netanyahu was pressured to agree to. But instead they want to keep hostages and return dead bodies. OTOH, of course that asshole Netanyahu wants to kill all of Hamas. So, the original ceasefire deal, which Israel reluctantly agreed to - is dead. > **[US, UK urge Hamas to accept Israel’s Gaza truce proposal](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/4/29/us-uk-urge-hamas-to-accept-israeli-truce-proposal-in-war-on-gaza#:~:text=British%20Foreign%20Secretary%20David%20Cameron%20said%20on%20Monday%20that%20the,release%20of%20some%20Israeli%20captives)** > > British Foreign Secretary David Cameron says the proposal includes a 40-day truce and the release of captives. Like I said- the protestors are protesting in vain- Hamas will not agree to any reasonable ceasefire deal. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-support-the-cause-of-the-pro-palestinian-protestors/1000841/203 "2024-05-08T04:03:30Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So Hams had a decent chance for a ceasefire- one that Netanyahu was pressured to agree to. But instead they want to keep hostages and return dead bodies. If Hamas no longer has 33 live hostages they may have to return bodies. At least a couple of hostages are supposedly lying under the rubble of collapsed buildings, but who knows if that’s true or not? Maybe, maybe not but given the way Israel has been bombing Gaza it’s plausible. Families of the deceased would still like to have their loved ones back for burial and mourning rituals. I also don’t think Netanyahu gives a damn about the hostages, they’re just pawns to him and his allies. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Like I said- the protestors are protesting in vain- Hamas will not agree to any reasonable ceasefire deal. I don’t think Israel will either - they’ve rejected out of hand a few proposals by Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-support-the-cause-of-the-pro-palestinian-protestors/1000841/204 "2024-05-08T04:19:57Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > If Hamas no longer has 33 live hostages they may have to return bodies. Wiki says- _As of 3 May 2024, 132 hostages remained in captivity in the Gaza Strip, 128 of whom had been abducted on 7 October 2023; the other four hostages having been captured earlier.[[26]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war_hostage_crisis#cite_note-kidnapped-26)_ Hmas took over 250 hostages. 100 were released. > **[The number of hostages still alive in Gaza is a mystery, officials say](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/number-hostages-still-alive-gaza-remains-mystery-officials-say-rcna148294)** > > The uncertainty has undermined international efforts to negotiate a cease-fire deal and the release of at least some of the hostages, U.S. and Israeli officials said. The US thinks there are 5 American hostages. If Hamas has been mistreating their hostages so much that of 132 there isnt 33 left alive, then Hamas deserved to be wiped from the Earth. But I dont think that’s the case. Hamas just wants to play games with the hostages. Like I said before- my deal would be a total ceasefire after Hamas releases every hostage- at once. > [@Broomstick](#): > > I don’t think Israel will either - they’ve rejected out of hand a few proposals by Hamas. True, but that last deal- the one I cited - has agreement by Israel. So all Hamas had to do is say- yes, and there;d be a ceasefire. And neutral observers said that deal was “Generous” to Hamas. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-support-the-cause-of-the-pro-palestinian-protestors/1000841/205 "2024-05-08T04:23:03Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So are ethnicity, language, religion, and culture Well, there we are back to helping one’s fellow white American homeless again. No, I don’t buy the ethnocratic argument that “ethnicity, language, religion, and culture” should form the basis for determining which countries are obligated to provide aid and shelter to non-citizens dispossessed and displaced in another country, by another country. > [@Smapti](#): > > and the Egyptians, Lebanese, and Syrians have much more in common with the Gazans in those aspects than Israeli Jews (most of whom are not the descendents of Ottoman subjects) do. This appears to be the flip side of the argument often heard when Zionism is accused of being a “European colonialism” movement. In those cases, the identification with European colonialism is indignantly denied, on the grounds that Jews are indigenous to Israel and there have always been Jews in Israel and Israel is the natural homeland of the Jewish people, so how dare you call them outlanders. And now when it’s suggested that Israel has a duty to care for the Palestinian refugees it dispossessed and displaced from the homeland they in turn had established there, it’s “Nah, the Israelis are mostly not descended from Ottoman subjects, they aren’t responsible for their neighbors in former Ottoman lands, leave that to the nearby Arab states.” Having it both ways again: Israeli Jews are insisted upon as native and indigenous when we want to emphasize their claims to the land, but backpedaled as different and unrelated when we want to evade claims that they have responsibilities to their fellow inhabitants of that land. > [@Smapti](#): > > In a sane world, the Arab states would be offering citizenship, a home, and a job to any Palestinian who chooses to emigrate. ISTM that in a sane world, Israel would have been protecting Palestinian rights and sovereignty right from the get-go. The idea that both peoples have historical claims and pre-existing residence in the land, but that only one of them is entitled to live in it freely, is insane. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-support-the-cause-of-the-pro-palestinian-protestors/1000841/206 "2024-05-08T04:25:25Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Having it both ways again: Israeli Jews are insisted upon as native and indigenous when we want to emphasize their claims to the land, but backpedaled as different and unrelated when we want to evade claims that they have responsibilities to their fellow inhabitants of that land. I do not claim that Jews have a right to live in Israel because their ancestors did 2000 years ago. I claim they have a right to live there by treaty, by cession from the British Mandate, and by right of conquest. More to the point, I do not acknowledge that Israelis have a moral obligation to help a people who want them dead. > [@Kimstu](#): > > Well, there we are back to helping one’s fellow white American homeless again. “American” is the relevant part to me, not “white”. If you live in America and intend to remain in America then I consider you American just as much as I am. If a Gazan refugee were to settle here and intended to remain here I would consider them American too. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-support-the-cause-of-the-pro-palestinian-protestors/1000841/207 "2024-05-08T04:29:37Z")
Clarification: I didn’t mean to suggest that you personally are using that “indigeneity” argument to counter complaints of Zionism being a “European colonialism” movement. I’m just noting that both sorts of arguments that I described make the rounds a lot in pro-Israel advocacy, despite their somewhat contradictory aspects. > [@Smapti](#): > > More to the point, I do not acknowledge that Israelis have a moral obligation to help a people who want them dead. Even leaving aside the silliness of the implication that the entire Palestinian people “want Israelis dead”, my point is that Israel has a moral obligation to recognize rights and sovereignty for the people who had and have just as much right to that ancestral homeland as Israelis do. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-support-the-cause-of-the-pro-palestinian-protestors/1000841/208 "2024-05-08T04:33:35Z")
I find accusations of “colonialism” to be irrelevant. The generation that “colonized” Israel is dead and the people living there now had no choice in where they were born and are not responsible for the acts of their ancestors. Trying to figure out who has the aboriginal right to live in a given place is an exercise in futility, because, as I noted above, pretty much every human civilization were colonists at one point. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-support-the-cause-of-the-pro-palestinian-protestors/1000841/209 "2024-05-08T04:52:49Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Trying to figure out who has the aboriginal right to live in a given place is an exercise in futility I completely agree, which is why I’m not particularly receptive to “ancient sovereignty” arguments for the Israeli nation-state. Nobody’s entitled to a mulligan based on conditions prevailing two thousand years ago. Recent sovereignty and residence, on the other hand, should count for a lot, ISTM. Yes, current generations of Israelis have human rights to freedom and self-determination in the land where they live, but so do current generations of Palestinians, most of whose ancestors were dispossessed from where they lived without their consent, and never compensated. Trying to “solve” the problem by declaring that the Palestinians all ought to just take refuge somewhere else and get out of the Israelis’ way, and their Arab neighbors are the ones to blame for not supporting that ethnic cleansing project via unlimited immigration opportunities for Palestinians, is IMHO unjustifiable. We as a society need to stop pretending that Palestinians as a people are just an inexplicably hostile bunch of Jew-haters with no legitimate cause of complaint against Israel, and if they don’t meekly accept being permanently dispossessed and rightsless in their own land then they’re automatically antisemitic. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-support-the-cause-of-the-pro-palestinian-protestors/1000841/210 "2024-05-08T05:32:46Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > If Hamas has been mistreating their hostages so much that of 132 there isnt 33 left alive, then Hamas deserved to be wiped from the Earth. While I agree Hamas is a pox on the Earth, you might have noticed a little bit of starvation, disease, and structural collapse of ~80% of Gaza. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-support-the-cause-of-the-pro-palestinian-protestors/1000841/211 "2024-05-08T06:02:58Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > and their Arab neighbors are the ones to blame I mean, their Arab neighbors quite literally started the conflict when their reaction to the declaration of Israeli statehood was to declare war and attempt to finish what Hitler started. It’s their mess and they ought to be the ones responsible for cleaning it up. > [@Kimstu](#): > > We as a society need to stop pretending that Palestinians as a people are just an inexplicably hostile bunch of Jew-haters with no legitimate cause of complaint Then they ought to stop acting that way. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-support-the-cause-of-the-pro-palestinian-protestors/1000841/212 "2024-05-08T08:43:32Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Then they ought to stop acting that way. How dare all those Gazan babies and children work so hard for the elimination of Israel! Thankfully the IDF has obliterated thousands of the little terrorists, and is killing more and more in Rafah as we speak! ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-support-the-cause-of-the-pro-palestinian-protestors/1000841/213 "2024-05-08T10:25:19Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > If Hamas has been mistreating their hostages so much that of 132 there isnt 33 left alive, then Hamas deserved to be wiped from the Earth. If there’s no food coming in and everyone is drinking brackish water because truly fresh is unobtainable and the buildings everyone in are being bombed…it may not be a matter of mistreatment so much as inability to provide for them. Yes, before you say anything, Hamas shouldn’t have taken them prisoner in the first place, that is correct. That doesn’t change the fact that circumstances may be such that Hamas is no longer _able_ to care well for anyone. Perhaps they should just release the hostages, then? [Well, arguably… But the IDF has been known to shoot dead Israeli hostages](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/3-israeli-hostages-tried-only-killed-military-rcna130912) so that’s not exactly safe either. ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-support-the-cause-of-the-pro-palestinian-protestors/1000841/214 "2024-05-08T11:34:00Z")
There is also the very real chance that some of the remaining 132 weren’t alive on October 8 to begin with and may not have even left Israel alive. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-support-the-cause-of-the-pro-palestinian-protestors/1000841/215 "2024-05-08T11:57:51Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > More to the point, I do not acknowledge that Israelis have a moral obligation to help a people who want them dead. Which places the moral obligation on the country backing Hamas in this proxy religious war… Iran. Instead they are funding attacks on vessels in the Red Sea. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-support-the-cause-of-the-pro-palestinian-protestors/1000841/216 "2024-05-08T13:06:14Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > More to the point, I do not acknowledge that Israelis have a moral obligation to help a people who want them dead. Do you believe they have an obligation to help Gazan children and babies? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-support-the-cause-of-the-pro-palestinian-protestors/1000841/217 "2024-05-08T15:03:57Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Do you believe they have an obligation to help Gazan children and babies? Yes, Hamas has an obligation to help Gazan children and babies. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-support-the-cause-of-the-pro-palestinian-protestors/1000841/218 "2024-05-08T15:07:10Z")
Do you then believe Hamas should be destroyed so no one is responsible for helping Gazan children and babies? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-support-the-cause-of-the-pro-palestinian-protestors/1000841/219 "2024-05-08T15:16:35Z")
What about Israel? Does Israel have any obligation towards Gazan babies and children, especially those who are starving or at risk of being blown up by Israeli weapons? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2024, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-support-the-cause-of-the-pro-palestinian-protestors/1000841/220 "2024-05-08T16:46:36Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The homeless in my town are Americans regardless of their race or color or origin. So how does that work with “people should only be helped by people of the same race/religion/ethnicity” stance? Because “American” is none of those things, and in your “states invading other states” hypothetical, its not even a shared nationality anymore. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-support-the-cause-of-the-pro-palestinian-protestors/1000841.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-support-the-cause-of-the-pro-palestinian-protestors/1000841.md?page=12)