# I support the cause of the pro-Palestinian protestors **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [April 27, 2024, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-support-the-cause-of-the-pro-palestinian-protestors/1000841 "2024-04-27T14:24:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2024, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-support-the-cause-of-the-pro-palestinian-protestors/1000841/121 "2024-05-04T18:16:00Z")
It’s roughly the span of time since Israel was established? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2024, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-support-the-cause-of-the-pro-palestinian-protestors/1000841/122 "2024-05-04T19:27:33Z")
> [@velomont](#): > > So I am curious (non-sarcastically and non-snarkily) if your 80 years is alluding to something specific. > **[Israel | Establishment and early years](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#Establishment_and_early_years)** > > On 14 May 1948, the day before the expiration of the British Mandate, David Ben-Gurion, the head of the Jewish Agency, declared "the establishment of a Jewish state in Eretz-Israel, to be known as the State of Israel." The only reference in the text of the Declaration to the borders of the new state is the use of the term Eretz-Israel ("Land of Israel").\[citation needed\] The following day, the armies of four Arab countries—Egypt, Syria, Transjordan and Iraq—entered into parts of what had bee Afte... ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2024, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-support-the-cause-of-the-pro-palestinian-protestors/1000841/123 "2024-05-04T20:57:24Z")
Here is why Hamas did not accept that Generous deal offered- > **[Hopes of Gaza ceasefire rise as Hamas delegation arrives in Cairo](https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/04/hopes-of-gaza-ceasefire-rise-as-hamas-delegation-arrives-in-cairo)** > > Egyptian and US mediators report signs of compromise, but many analysts remain pessimistic _Negotiators have consistently struggled to reconcile Hamas’s demand for a lasting ceasefire which would allow the organisation to claim a victory with the apparent determination of Benjamin Netanyahu, the Israeli prime minister, to force Hamas from power, kill or capture its leadership and destroy all its military capabilities._ Okay, so Hamas is happy to let it’s people die and suffer-until they can claim they 'won"?? And, yeah-Netanyahu is an asshole. But maybe good breaking news?? > **[Report: Hamas accepts Gaza cease-fire deal; Israeli officials deny prospect...](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-05-04/ty-article/.premium/report-hamas-accepts-gaza-cease-fire-deal-israeli-officials-deny-prospect-of-war-ending/0000018f-42eb-d414-a5bf-f3fff18a0000)** > > According to the Report, Hamas Was Guaranteed by the U.S. for a Full Israeli Withdrawal From the Gaza Strip and That Israeli Forces Will Not Continue Fighting Once the Hostages Are Released An Israeli Official Told Haaretz That 'Israel Will, Under No... # Report: Hamas Accepts Gaza Cease-fire Deal; Israeli Officials Reject Prospect of War Ending _According to the report, Hamas was guaranteed by the U.S. for a full Israeli withdrawal from the Gaza Strip and that Israeli forces will not continue fighting once the hostages are released ■ An Israeli official told Haaretz that ‘Israel will, under no circumstances, agree to end the war as part of a deal’ and is determined to enter Rafah_ If Hamas is now willing and it is asshole Netanyahu standing in the way, I now agree- The USA has to take some steps to put severe pressure on Netanyahu. Stopping the aid maybe- which Biden can’t do unilaterally, but Biden might be able to slow it down until Congress reacts. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2024, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-support-the-cause-of-the-pro-palestinian-protestors/1000841/124 "2024-05-04T21:04:08Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > If Hamas is now willing and it is asshole Netanyahu standing in the way, I now agree- The USA has to take some steps to put severe pressure on Netanyahu. Stopping the aid maybe- which Biden can’t do unilaterally, but Biden might be able to slow it down until Congress reacts. Yes. (And thanks for posting the news). > [@velomont](#): > > My belief is that one can carefully cherry-pick points in history until you find some awful historical injustice to support your particular belief. I have no doubt that every culture, society, nationality, ethnicity is guilty of something. Absolutely. If people haven’t seen this three-minute classic piece of commentary, I hope they’ll give it a try: > **[This Land Is Mine - Nina Paley](https://blog.ninapaley.com/2012/10/01/this-land-is-mine/)** > > I envisioned This Land Is Mine as the last scene of my potential-possible-maybe- feature film, Seder-Masochism, but it’s the first (and so far only) scene I’ve animated. As the Bible says, “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”... ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2024, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-support-the-cause-of-the-pro-palestinian-protestors/1000841/125 "2024-05-04T21:25:40Z")
I had not seen that. Really clever. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2024, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-support-the-cause-of-the-pro-palestinian-protestors/1000841/126 "2024-05-04T21:29:43Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > You can keep saying “well just because there are some anti-Semitic elements doesn’t ruin the overall point that the protestors are making”. Sorry, but it absolutely _does_ discredit their point. I agree. I’d also say that the point that campus protesters want to make is discredited by their silence about October 7 and the current hostages. AND by their silence about clear injustices happening in places _other than_ Israel (To name a few: Ukraine. Sudan. Myanmar.) With the great and sincere sympathy for non-combatant Gazan Palestinians that I do have, I find the utter and complete lack of student interest in situations _not_ involving a Jewish state …troubling. If the dividing point is supposed to be US military aid–students are concerned when the US is giving such aid but unconcerned when the US is NOT giving aid–then they should still be protesting injustice in most of the world’s hotspots. US military aid to Somalia is substantial–in 2022 that government was the ninth-highest recipient of US military aid. The Somali government falls somewhere short of sainthood. Why aren’t students protesting _that_ situation? [https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/countries-that-receive-the-most-foreign-aid-from-the-u-s](https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/countries-that-receive-the-most-foreign-aid-from-the-u-s) ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2024, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-support-the-cause-of-the-pro-palestinian-protestors/1000841/127 "2024-05-04T21:31:28Z")
Yes. Rather haunting, really. (I first saw it years ago and have remained impressed by the simplicity-compounded-by-complexity.) ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2024, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-support-the-cause-of-the-pro-palestinian-protestors/1000841/128 "2024-05-04T22:08:56Z")
Maybe because Somalia didn’t run a commercial during the Super Bowl, and hundreds of other places, talking about how wonderful they are. Pro tip: if you don’t want the rest of the world noticing that you are slaughtering tens of thousands of innocent people, don’t take out advertising about it. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2024, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-support-the-cause-of-the-pro-palestinian-protestors/1000841/129 "2024-05-04T22:14:24Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > If people haven’t seen this three-minute classic piece of commentary, I hope they’ll give it a try: > > [This Land Is Mine - Nina Paley](https://blog.ninapaley.com/2012/10/01/this-land-is-mine/) Yep, that’s a concise history of the Middle East. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2024, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-support-the-cause-of-the-pro-palestinian-protestors/1000841/130 "2024-05-04T22:43:31Z")
So is there some kind of head count or flow chart documenting which leaders of Hamas have been taken out so far? Or is it just a bunch of pictures of dead and/or starving kids? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2024, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-support-the-cause-of-the-pro-palestinian-protestors/1000841/131 "2024-05-05T11:23:22Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Just because Hamas is refusing to surrender doesn’t mean results aren’t being achieved. Many of their most crucial bases of operation have been destroyed, along with tons of their equipment, and many thousands of their operatives have been killed. This seems like an awfully rosy portrayal. Here’s another point of view: > > [@](#): > > There seems to be a misconception that Israel has destroyed the fighting capacity of Hamas. While the IDF made significant progress on that front, it has not come anywhere near doing that. > > When the war started, Hamas had 24 brigades in Gaza and an estimated 30,000 personnel. It is worth noting that this is fighting personnel. It does not include governing officials and police. They have probably 10,000 more men at their disposal in other roles. > > Over the war, Israel has dismantled 18 of the 24 brigades. But that does not mean that every member of those battalions was killed, captured, or taken out of the circle of belligerency, far from it. Most brigades disbanded under immense IDF pressure and converted into small groups of guerillas instead. That proved far more effective than fighting as brigades, anyway. > > The IDF claims to have killed 13,000 Hamas members. Not all were necessarily personnel. Others estimate the number as 8,000-10,000. > > However, that doesn’t mean that you subtract the number from that 30,000. Remember, there is a massive supply of military-age males in Gaza, no economy, nothing to do, and rampant hatred of Israel. Adding new recruits is incredibly easy, and Hamas does that daily. Weapons are still being brought in because Israel never disposed of the tunnels under the Egyptian border. > > So, don’t be surprised that Hamas is taking back Gaza. One IDF officer I spoke to estimates that Hamas currently has 20,000 armed terrorists. As soon as the IDF leaves an area, these forces easily go back in and reestablish Hamas control. > > The only way to stop that would be to leave a permanent force and establish a replacement government. That sounds like pretty weak progress to me. And the cost has been astronomical, obviously for Gazan civilians, but also to Israel’s reputation. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2024, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-support-the-cause-of-the-pro-palestinian-protestors/1000841/132 "2024-05-05T12:30:53Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Over the war, Israel has dismantled 18 of the 24 brigades. But that does not mean that every member of those battalions was killed, captured, or taken out of the circle of belligerency, far from it. Most brigades disbanded under immense IDF pressure and converted into small groups of guerillas instead. That proved far more effective than fighting as brigades, anyway. These Brigades are nit just individual people. They are alsp infrastructure and equipment. Each of these brigades had their own headquarters with dozens of tunnels weaving under civilian infrastructure, and equipment smuggled in from Iran, beyond the sorts of things that can be improvised in Gaza. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So, don’t be surprised that Hamas is taking back Gaza. One IDF officer I spoke to estimates that Hamas currently has 20,000 armed terrorists. As soon as the IDF leaves an area, these forces easily go back in and reestablish Hamas control. > > The only way to stop that would be to leave a permanent force and establish a replacement government. That’s what I have been saying all along. Yes, I agree, a punitive expedition into Gaza is not gonna be beneficial in the long term. Gaza needs to be administrated by someone other than Hamas when all is said and done. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That sounds like pretty weak progress to me. And the cost has been astronomical, obviously for Gazan civilians, but also to Israel’s reputation. I’m not over here saying “Progress is great, this war is easy peezy, and there’s no problem with civilian casualties”. Of course this war has been an absolute brutal slog, with high civilian casualties. Any war that requires going into a densely populated urban area that’s been directly controlled by a terrorist group that’s happy to spend civilian lives for PR cred is going to be an absolute brutal slog, with incredibly high civilian casualties. I am yet to see _any_ plan for effectively combatting Hamas that _wouldn’t_ be a brutal urban warfare slog. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2024, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-support-the-cause-of-the-pro-palestinian-protestors/1000841/133 "2024-05-05T12:48:02Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I’m not over here saying “Progress is great, this war is easy peezy, and there’s no problem with civilian casualties”. Of course this war has been an absolute brutal slog, with high civilian casualties. > > Any war that requires going into a densely populated urban area that’s been directly controlled by a terrorist group that’s happy to spend civilian lives for PR cred is going to be an absolute brutal slog, with incredibly high civilian casualties. > > I am yet to see _any_ plan for effectively combatting Hamas that _wouldn’t_ be a brutal urban warfare slog. I’m saying that this IDF is incapable of this victory, at least not without hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths. And that wouldn’t be a real victory. This is what Israel should have done: > > [@](#): > > So what other options did Israel have after October 7th? There are many possible answers, which were clear from the beginning. You may disagree with some or all of this, but six months later, and after all of the most recent disasters, I believe even more strongly that this was the way to go: > > 1. First, stop and think. Even for just a few days. Don’t react _exactly_ as always, and exactly as Hamas expected and wanted. Don’t give them what they want. It’s Gaza. Hamas is not leaving. A response can wait a few days. > > 2. Take a moment to mourn, grieve, sit shiva together (after securing the border, of course). > > 3. Make the hostages the #1 priority and get them back _whatever_ it takes. A victory for Hamas? Of course. But life is more important. > > 4. Use that pause to focus the world’s attention—for more than one day—on what Hamas did. Shame and isolate them the way ISIS was shamed and isolated. > > 5. Make it clear that in whatever war or campaign comes next, protecting civilians will be a priority, and _act_ that way. (Don’t block all aid, use only precision weapons, don’t bomb civilian infrastructure, warn the soldiers that any shenanigans will be punished, etc.) > > 6. Separate the Palestinian people from Hamas’s leadership by reiterating a commitment to a real two-state solution (yes, I know (!) that Netanyahu and this government would never do that. I am simply stating what would have been the right thing to do). > > 7. Go after Hamas methodically, surgically, financially, with much of the world behind us. (For example, using drones and helicopters, no armed man walks the streets of Gaza again until all hostages are released.) > > 8. Clamp down on the Jewish extremists in the West Bank. Make it clear that you will not allow them to open another front. Arrest as many as necessary. > > 9. Explain to the Israeli public, again and again, exactly why you are doing all this. Why there is great strength in restraint. That the goal is to prevent this from ever happening again. But that this will take heart and brains, and not just muscle. > > 10. Speak softly. No need to make big empty threats when you have so much power. > > This would have been a start. One can wish. And to all those, especially non-Israelis, who will call me “naive,” are you happy so far with the results of your “only way?” Come on. So what should they do now? Stop this war which is _weakening Israel_ and, in the long term, strengthening Israel’s enemies, and start over with the above. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2024, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-support-the-cause-of-the-pro-palestinian-protestors/1000841/134 "2024-05-05T13:43:02Z")
What is the actual concrete proposal there? Stay out of Gaza and hit Hamas with drone strikes and from the air? That’s not “trying something new”, that’s the 2014 Gaza war redux. In fact Israel _did_ pause, for a few says, and then began a ground invasion of Gaza - which _is_ something completely different. We withdrew in 2007 and since then our policy has been limited engagements from the air as much as possible. This is the _opposite_ of “reacting exactly as always”. Anyways, the idea that Israel could make it so that “no armed person can walk the streets of Gaza” through air strikes without causing exactly the sort of collateral damage we are seeing now is a fantasy. There’s this idea being pandered that Israel is indiscriminately bombing Gaza. That’s bullshit. Israel is using as much precision as it can. The problem is that in a real war “as much precision as possible” still often means a whole building goes down, and Hamas intentionally operates out of the same buildings that civilians use. If there was a magic wand solution that would allow only Hamas operatives to be targeted, Israel would use it. Unfortunately, such a tool simply does not exist. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2024, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-support-the-cause-of-the-pro-palestinian-protestors/1000841/135 "2024-05-05T14:05:22Z")
I find it, frankly, nigh-delusional that anyone could look at the last several months as anything but a catastrophe for Israel. Hamas wanted a total disaster for Gaza civilians. Why is Israel giving it to them? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2024, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-support-the-cause-of-the-pro-palestinian-protestors/1000841/136 "2024-05-05T14:13:03Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Hamas wanted a total disaster for Gaza civilians. Why is Israel giving it to them? Because Hamas has made it completely impossible to target Hamas without causing a total disaster for the civilians of Gaza. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I find it, frankly, nigh-delusional that anyone could look at the last several months as anything but a catastrophe for Israel. Of course this has been a catastrophe. October 7th was a catastrophe. Dealing with Hamas has been a catstrophe. But I simply _do not see a better solution_. Unfortunately we have been on a catastrophic path since the decisions that allowed Hamas to come to power and then entranch themselves in Gazan society were made. But the only alternative proposals for how to _deal with_ that catastrophe that I have seen are to either do nothing or to repeat 2014 and bomb the crap out of Hamas for a while and hope they eventually send back the hostages. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2024, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-support-the-cause-of-the-pro-palestinian-protestors/1000841/137 "2024-05-05T14:21:58Z")
The alternative would have been to recognize that Hamas can’t be defeated by the IDF alone without annihilating Gaza (and even then, the seeds of Hamas would remain outside of Gaza). So international support would have been needed – take the time to mourn, and build support (and I think there was actually a window in which Israel had most of the world’s sympathy), and get the hostages back, and gather the world’s support to destroy the ability of Hamas to be funded and organized. Hamas’s real support isn’t in Gaza, it’s in Qatar, Iran, etc. Going after Hamas in Gaza alone _helps Hamas_ in the long run, since it further entrenches Gaza and Palestinians against Israel, and further weakens world support for Israel’s efforts. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2024, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-support-the-cause-of-the-pro-palestinian-protestors/1000841/138 "2024-05-05T14:35:58Z")
The world doesn’t give a shit. Not about us, not about the Palestinians, and not about any of the people who are _actuallly_ being genocided every day without any of us in the West hearing about it. Israel exists _precisely_ so that when someone starts massacaring us, we can do something about it; we don’t need to wait for the world to decide that actually, destroying the Nazis is in their own self-interest. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2024, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-support-the-cause-of-the-pro-palestinian-protestors/1000841/139 "2024-05-05T14:36:16Z")
And I forgot to mention a crucial part of a real, positive plan that may have had a chance to work – _commit in advance to two-states_, with an international commitment for support, following the real defeat of Hamas. Work to get Gazans and Palestinians on Israel’s side. None of this would be easy, of course – probably very, very hard. But at least it would have been Israel putting real effort to a real plan for the defeat of Hamas and real peace. What’s happening right now is essentially the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2024, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-support-the-cause-of-the-pro-palestinian-protestors/1000841/140 "2024-05-05T14:37:59Z")
Easy to say this, except Netanyahu and his right wing allies are doing everything they can, and have been for years, to ensure that the world _never_ sees Israel as actually working towards peace. Right now, Israeli leadership is de-facto an ally of Hamas in trying to ensure world opinion forever continues to condemn Israel. Netanyahu and his allies are as much to blame for this situation as Hamas. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-support-the-cause-of-the-pro-palestinian-protestors/1000841.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-support-the-cause-of-the-pro-palestinian-protestors/1000841.md?page=8)