# I survived... beyond and back **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 8, 2011, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836 "2011-01-08T03:11:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/181 "2012-03-15T17:44:28Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I didn’t dismiss your answer. I was discussing something you said. Not sure I agree with you. You strongly implied that accepting such a thing as the subjective evidence that I am talking about is “just about worthless”. You were at the very least being dismissive of the notion that subjective experience can be a valid basis on which I can decide whether or not I have a soul. Let’s assume you are correct, I’m hard pressed to think of any other evidence you could possibly use to make that kind of decision. Are you suggesting that we do an experiment to prove/disprove the existence of my soul? If so, what kind of experiment would you set up to do that? It makes no sense. So if you won’t accept the use of “worthless” personal experience to come to some kind of conclusion about a non-material concept such as the soul, then what do you have left to argue with? By definition you have excluded the very possiblity of talking about the soul in any serious way, since the only possible evidence for a soul has to be personal experience, which you stated will make the concept of evidence “just about worthless”. Back to you Bob. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/182 "2012-03-15T17:56:12Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > Not sure I agree with you. You strongly implied that accepting such a thing as the subjective evidence that I am talking about is “just about worthless”. I get the sense you are reading a lot of things into my posts that I am not actually saying- you’re crediting me with a lot of attacks and derisive comments that I’m not making. Keep in mind I didn’t ask for proof (or even evidence) for the existence of souls in the first place. I’m trying to get an answer from **Fairy Ana** on whether we should believe in things without evidence, or what we do when there is no evidence. I did not say all subjective evidence is worthless; I agree that subjective experiences can be evidence. I said that if you broaden the definition of evidence far enough, anything can be called evidence - which makes the idea of evidence worthless. So if you say “there is subjective evidence for souls,” that doesn’t mean the evidence is strong or in any way convincing. That would depend on what the actual evidence is. ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/183 "2012-03-15T18:20:29Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I get the sense you are reading a lot of things into my posts that I am not actually saying- you’re crediting me with a lot of attacks and derisive comments that I’m not making. Keep in mind I didn’t ask for proof (or even evidence) for the existence of souls in the first place. I’m trying to get an answer from **Fairy Ana** on whether we should believe in things without evidence, or what we do when there is no evidence. I did not say all subjective evidence is worthless; I agree that subjective experiences can be evidence. I said that if you broaden the definition of evidence far enough, anything can be called evidence - which makes the idea of evidence worthless. So if you say “there is subjective evidence for souls,” that doesn’t mean the evidence is strong or in any way convincing. That would depend on what the actual evidence is. Well heck I can only read stuff into the words that you provide for that purpose. You have to admit that “worthless” is pretty strong smokes. No? The original question (yours?) was something like “should be believe in anything without evidence?” You didn’t ask for evidence of souls, true. I don’t think there is such a distinction unless you are setting up a counter to faith based beliefs. I stricly speaking can’t do faith based anythiing. There has to be something, and that something has to minimally be an intuition or feeling about the thing under discussion. I think in general people don’t do faith based anything, they may call it having faith, but it is really based on their intuition/feeling based on their life experiences. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/184 "2012-03-15T18:27:26Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > I think in general people don’t do faith based anything, they may call it having faith, but it is really based on their intuition/feeling based on their life experiences. What you’re describing is still faith. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/185 "2012-03-15T18:30:19Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > Well heck I can only read stuff into the words that you provide for that purpose. Have you ever tried _reading_ the words, instead of reading _into_ them? This would save others the time and effort used to correct your misinterpretation of what they haven’t said. ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/186 "2012-03-15T18:46:43Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Have you ever tried _reading_ the words, instead of reading _into_ them? This would save others the time and effort used to correct your misinterpretation of what they haven’t said. Blah blah blah, what a nasty old goat you are. Do you ever do anything other than spew out short sharp jabs that come sailing in out of nowhere? Who are you and what do you want? Unless I miss my guess, and I don’ think I am, Marley doesn’t need you to protect him from me. Go away, your breath stinks. I woud use four letter words and I will if you bother me again. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/187 "2012-03-15T18:47:45Z")
**mishagoe** , that’s not appropriate for this forum. I’m giving you a formal warning for that post, and don’t do it again. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/188 "2012-03-15T18:51:29Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > Blah blah blah, what a nasty old goat you are. Do you ever do anything other than spew out short sharp jabs that come sailing in out of nowhere? Who are you and what do you want? Unless I miss my guess, and I don’ think I am, Marley doesn’t need you to protect him from me. Go away, your breath stinks. I woud use four letter words and I will if you bother me again. To get back on topic, do you know of any verifiable evidence to support the idea that NDEs are some sort of supernatural experience that might counteract the vast amount of evidence that they aren’t? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/189 "2012-03-15T19:39:56Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > By definition you have excluded the very possiblity of talking about the soul in any serious way, since the only possible evidence for a soul has to be personal experience, which you stated will make the concept of evidence “just about worthless”. Nonsense. If souls were real in the first place, there’s no reason to assume that they or their effects wouldn’t be detectable; in fact they’d _have_ to be detectable to have any relevance to us. You are just indulging in what has become a standard tactic of believers of all kinds since science began consistently disproving all of their claims; they insist that their supernatural menagerie is “by definition” indetectable and unanalyzable by science. Of course that’s complete nonsense; there’s no rational reason to assume that “supernatural” things couldn’t be detected and analyzed like anything else, if they were real. And back before science began disproving everything they claimed, the believers themselves didn’t claim that God and souls and so forth were beyond science - they assumed that science would prove them right, and only decided their fantasies were beyond the ability of science to grasp when science kept proving them wrong. Science doesn’t find it impossible to study souls and spirits and gods because they are “beyond science”; it finds them impossible to analyze because they don’t exist. Science can’t study something that isn’t there. ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/190 "2012-03-15T20:00:31Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Nonsense. If souls were real in the first place, there’s no reason to assume that they or their effects wouldn’t be detectable; in fact they’d _have_ to be detectable to have any relevance to us. > > You are just indulging in what has become a standard tactic of believers of all kinds since science began consistently disproving all of their claims; they insist that their supernatural menagerie is “by definition” indetectable and unanalyzable by science. Of course that’s complete nonsense; there’s no rational reason to assume that “supernatural” things couldn’t be detected and analyzed like anything else, if they were real. And back before science began disproving everything they claimed, the believers themselves didn’t claim that God and souls and so forth were beyond science - they assumed that science would prove them right, and only decided their fantasies were beyond the ability of science to grasp when science kept proving them wrong. Science doesn’t find it impossible to study souls and spirits and gods because they are “beyond science”; it finds them impossible to analyze because they don’t exist. Science can’t study something that isn’t there. I’m just glad that science isn’t the one and only measure of what is relevant in life. Otherwise I’d have no option but to agree with you on every point. ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/191 "2012-03-15T20:01:53Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > To get back on topic, do you know of any verifiable evidence to support the idea that NDEs are some sort of supernatural experience that might counteract the vast amount of evidence that they aren’t? Nope, do you? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/192 "2012-03-15T20:02:29Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > I’m just glad that science isn’t the one and only measure of what is relevant in life. Once again, that wasn’t what he, or anyone else in this thread for that matter, said. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/193 "2012-03-15T20:04:37Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > Nope, do you? No one has, so far. ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/194 "2012-03-15T20:04:54Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > **mishagoe** , that’s not appropriate for this forum. I’m giving you a formal warning for that post, and don’t do it again. Heh? I think Czarcasm isn’t appropriate on this forum for being the massive generic ass he works so dilligently at wanting to be. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/195 "2012-03-15T20:11:37Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > Heh? I think Czarcasm isn’t appropriate on this forum for being the massive generic ass he works so dilligently at wanting to be. That’s your second warning. I was not kidding around. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/196 "2012-03-15T20:30:33Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > > [@mishagoe](#): > > > > I’m just glad that science isn’t the one and only measure of what is relevant in life. Otherwise I’d have no option but to agree with you on every point. > > Once again, that wasn’t what he, or anyone else in this thread for that matter, said. Yes. the point I (and others) _was_ making is that in order to be relevant to us “souls” would have to interact with the world, and if they interact with the world they are in principle detectable. And science may not be “the one and only measure of what is relevant in life”, but that doesn’t make religion and religious beliefs like souls any less false beliefs. It’s not enough to denigrate science to make religious beliefs plausible; there has to be some evidence for them better than “I say so, and don’t listen to those millions of people who say different”. As it is, there’s no reason to consider the claims of some Pope or Bishop or Mullah or Lama any more believable than the rantings of some schizophrenic on a streetcorner. ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/197 "2012-03-15T20:40:38Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > That’s your second warning. I was not kidding around. Neither am I. Czarcasm comes out of left field for no good reason with a nasty bug up his a$$. I have no problem with anyone disagreeing with me, but there is a way to do it. Ban me if you must for naming Czarcasm for what he/she is. I"ve tried to play nice, only to get more of the same slop served up by hiim/she. If you want everyone to play nice here then make everyone play nice or you’ll end up having to ban me. It’s really up to Czarcasm at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/198 "2012-03-15T20:44:54Z")
> [@mishagoe](#): > > It’s really up to Czarcasm at this point. No, it isn’t. Your behavior is up to you; **Czarcasm** is responsible for his own behavior. That’s the standard everyone is held to on this board. You’re allowed to object to his posts and arguments, but you’re not allowed to insult him (and he has not insulted you). If you have any complaints about moderating, take them to the appropriate venue - private messages or About This Message Board. ---
**Author:** ![mishagoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mishagoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mishagoe)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/199 "2012-03-15T21:21:08Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > No, it isn’t. Your behavior is up to you; **Czarcasm** is responsible for his own behavior. That’s the standard everyone is held to on this board. You’re allowed to object to his posts and arguments, but you’re not allowed to insult him (and he has not insulted you). If you have any complaints about moderating, take them to the appropriate venue - private messages or About This Message Board. Wow, really?. Here is what Czarcasm posted: > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Have you ever tried _reading_ the words, instead of reading _into_ them? This would save others the time and effort used to correct your misinterpretation of what they haven’t said. It’s four letter word disguised as a two sentence paragraph. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2012, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/200 "2012-03-15T21:25:10Z")
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