# I survived... beyond and back **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 8, 2011, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836 "2011-01-08T03:11:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/221 "2012-03-25T17:11:01Z")
> [@Fairy\_Ana](#): > > On another note: > > You can fly if you use a flying device. > This one is pretty cool: > [wejetset.com](http://www.wejetset.com/magazine/2008/5/15/206/travel_solutions:_get) > > You are rich enough to have access to a computer with internet. Richness is relative. > > In my opinion you have a soul and it is immortal. šŸ˜ƒ Your opinion is wrong, and the rest is just word games. > [@Fairy\_Ana](#): > > People have their subjective evidence, their logical interpretations of things and because their belief is not scientifically based or irrational to many does not make them ignorant. Yes it does; ignorant or irrational. Reality is what it is. And ā€œsubjective evidenceā€ is worthless for anything that isnā€™t totally subjective. > [@Fairy\_Ana](#): > > Where is the ignorance in trying to seek some comfort to the mind? If, for instance, prayer helps a mother to grieve her lost son do you call her ignorant? If her belief that her son is still present in spirit and that gives her a sense of hope in one day having him in her arms in another level of existence is that ignorant? It would seem unfair to call her ignorant because to you these things are not true. That is her opinion, based on her own logic, because she is capable of rational thoughts. No. She is being irrational, there is no such thing as a soul, and her son is simply gone. And yes itā€™s destructive for her and everyone; her actions and beliefs donā€™t exist in isolation. The other destructive effects of belief in the soul still occur regardless of how she is comforted. Her son may well have died in the first place because of them. > [@Fairy\_Ana](#): > > I link lack of morality to ignorance, not freedom of belief. So the belief that black people are subhuman doesnā€™t lead to immoral behavior? The belief that your god has ordained that your people shall rule over the world doesnā€™t lead to immoral behavior? _Most_ evil has a strong component of people believing falsehoods. ---
**Author:** ![Fairy\_Ana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Fairy\_Ana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fairy_Ana)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/222 "2012-03-25T22:38:57Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Your opinion is wrong, and the rest is just word games. > > Yes it does; ignorant or irrational. Reality is what it is. And ā€œsubjective evidenceā€ is worthless for anything that isnā€™t totally subjective. > > No. She is being irrational, there is no such thing as a soul, and her son is simply gone. And yes itā€™s destructive for her and everyone; her actions and beliefs donā€™t exist in isolation. The other destructive effects of belief in the soul still occur regardless of how she is comforted. Her son may well have died in the first place because of them. Actually I was using my brother-in-law as an example and he died of a stroke. My mother-in-law only started to believe in souls the night he passed away. But you are free to believe in whatever story you want. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > So the belief that black people are subhuman doesnā€™t lead to immoral behavior? The belief that your god has ordained that your people shall rule over the world doesnā€™t lead to immoral behavior? _Most_ evil has a strong component of people believing falsehoods. If a person has ethics and morals, they know how to distinguish which beliefs lead to destruction, hate and the things you have described. When one choses to follow an ethical life they chose to follow beliefs which are constructive, productive and that respect others. And itā€™s not hard to distinguish which is which, when you take away peopleā€™s ignorance on the matter. To destructive, harmful actions, you get a destructive harmful reaction. To every benevolent, respectful, charitable action, you get respectful charitable reaction. My point is, one can think of horrible things regardless of belief. Would you like an example? ā€œJeffrey Dahmer, an infamous serial killer and atheist sentenced to 900 years in prison, said ā€œif a person doesnā€™t think that there is a God to be accountable to, then whatā€™s the point of trying to modify your behavior to keep it within acceptable ranges?ā€. He brutally killed seventeen men and boys, dismembering them, storing their parts and indulging in cannibalism and necrophilia. In 1991, he was caught by the police after one of his would-be victims escaped. Despite pleading not guilty on the basis on insanity, the court found him sane and fully accountable. He later expressed remorse.ā€ > **[10 People Who Give Atheism a BadĀ Name - Listverse](https://listverse.com/2010/06/05/10-people-who-give-atheism-a-bad-name/)** > > Atheism has been around for thousands of years, and responsible for many philosophical and scientific developments. Like any movement, it has had its fair share of evil characters. As atheism has no moral precepts outside of natural morality and... Iā€™m not condemning atheism. Iā€™m married to an atheist, my sister is an atheist, I very much respect that. But if a madman believes in Atheist he will use it as an excuse to do horrible things. That is true to any belief. Do you get my point? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/223 "2012-03-25T22:41:16Z")
> [@Fairy\_Ana](#): > > But if a madman believes in Atheist he will use it as an excuse to do horrible things. That is true to any belief. Do you get my point? No, I donā€™t. People do things in adherence to religious dogma that they would not do otherwise. I donā€™t think their evil is inevitable. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/224 "2012-03-25T22:42:45Z")
> [@Fairy\_Ana](#): > > And itā€™s not hard to distinguish which is which, when you take away peopleā€™s ignorance on the matter. To destructive, harmful actions, you get a destructive harmful reaction. To every benevolent, respectful, charitable action, you get respectful charitable reaction. Off-topic nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/225 "2012-03-25T22:45:08Z")
> [@Fairy\_Ana](#): > > Iā€™m not condemning atheism. Iā€™m married to an atheist, my sister is an atheist, I very much respect that. But if a madman believes in Atheist he will use it as an excuse to do horrible things. That is true to any belief. Do you get my point? ā€œBelieve in Atheistā€?? Why donā€™t you give us your definition of atheism, because I see a bit of a gap between what you think it is and what it really is. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/226 "2012-03-25T22:59:43Z")
> [@Fairy\_Ana](#): > > Iā€™m not condemning atheism. Iā€™m married to an atheist, my sister is an atheist, I very much respect that. But if a madman believes in Atheist he will use it as an excuse to do horrible things. That is true to any belief. Do you get my point? Please provide a cite that shows that Dahmer used his non-belief in deities as a primary justification for his actions. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/227 "2012-03-25T23:02:17Z")
> [@Fairy\_Ana](#): > > If a person has ethics and morals, they know how to distinguish which beliefs lead to destruction, hate and the things you have described. When one choses to follow an ethical life they chose to follow beliefs which are constructive, productive and that respect others. > > And itā€™s not hard to distinguish which is which, when you take away peopleā€™s ignorance on the matter. To destructive, harmful actions, you get a destructive harmful reaction. To every benevolent, respectful, charitable action, you get respectful charitable reaction. Except when you base your worldview on a falsehood like souls, you are going to be using an equally false standard of what is harmful and what is benevolent. Religious beliefs like souls are fundamentally incompatible with ethical behavior, because regardless of how well meaning they are people who believe in such religious delusions are acting according to a fantasy, not reality. People who believe in souls will torture and massacre people by the millions with the absolute conviction that they are doing good, because they are basing their definition of 'good" on something that doesnā€™t exist. Someone who believes in souls might well start a nuclear war with the goal of destroying humanity out of benevolence - after all no one is _really_ dying, they are just going to the afterlife. > [@Fairy\_Ana](#): > > But if a madman believes in Atheist he will use it as an excuse to do horrible things. That is true to any belief. Do you get my point? Itā€™s a wrong belief. ā€œBelieve in atheistā€ doesnā€™t even mean anything, not all beliefs are equally prone to produce evil behavior, and atheism canā€™t motivate anyone to do anything. ---
**Author:** ![Fairy\_Ana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Fairy\_Ana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fairy_Ana)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/228 "2012-03-26T00:50:14Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Please provide a cite that shows that Dahmer used his non-belief in deities as a primary justification for his actions. This is a technical question I have, sorry, but I am new to these forums, what is a cite? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/229 "2012-03-26T01:13:35Z")
> [@Fairy\_Ana](#): > > This is a technical question I have, sorry, but I am new to these forums, what is a cite? A reference to a reputable historical record. ---
**Author:** ![Fairy\_Ana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Fairy\_Ana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fairy_Ana)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/230 "2012-03-26T01:19:59Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Except when you base your worldview on a falsehood like souls, you are going to be using an equally false standard of what is harmful and what is benevolent. Religious beliefs like souls are fundamentally incompatible with ethical behavior, because regardless of how well meaning they are people who believe in such religious delusions are acting according to a fantasy, not reality. People who believe in souls will torture and massacre people by the millions with the absolute conviction that they are doing good, because they are basing their definition of 'good" on something that doesnā€™t exist. Someone who believes in souls might well start a nuclear war with the goal of destroying humanity out of benevolence - after all no one is _really_ dying, they are just going to the afterlife. > > Itā€™s a wrong belief. ā€œBelieve in atheistā€ doesnā€™t even mean anything, not all beliefs are equally prone to produce evil behavior, and atheism canā€™t motivate anyone to do anything. It is very evident, by your line of thinking, that you are very passionate and proud of your belief. You believe that any acceptance of the soul is cause of bitterness and harm and ignorance and since most of mankind believes in souls then that means that most of mankind is evil and ignorant. I would feel very afraid of any form of human contact if I adopted your line of belief. ---
**Author:** ![Fairy\_Ana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Fairy\_Ana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fairy_Ana)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/231 "2012-03-26T02:03:32Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Please provide a cite that shows that Dahmer used his non-belief in deities as a primary justification for his actions. From what I researched, he said this in Dateline NBC, The Final Interview, Nov. 29, 1994. ---
**Author:** ![Bemused](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/46a35a/32.png) [@Bemused](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bemused)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/232 "2012-03-26T05:56:49Z")
> [@mike\_ahndembroak](#): > > am I alone in thinking that the ā€œhereafterā€ would be more systematic than that. wouldnā€™t everyone have the same experience as everyone else. could this be evidence that these are nothing more than a ā€œdream stateā€? Well, that would depend on the nature of the hereafter, now wouldnā€™t it? I would think that any such assumption, absent any facts, is not supportable under any circumstances. And, unfortunately, the near death experiences of individuals donā€™t constitute a usable body of facts. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/233 "2012-03-26T13:57:14Z")
> [@Fairy\_Ana](#): > > But if a madman believes in Atheist he will use it as an excuse to do horrible things. That is true to any belief. Do you get my point? Your point is that an insane person will use whatever beliefs he has to justify his doing horrible things? Sure, I can go with that, but I have to say that Iā€™d rather a madman have actual, true beliefs, rather than fantasy ones. > [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Please provide a cite that shows that Dahmer used his non-belief in deities as a primary justification for his actions. Dahmerā€™s father was an evangelical and creationist. After Jeffrey was in prison, his father sent him creationist/evangelical materials, and Jeffrey became an evangelical himself. At this time, he very conveniently chose to place the blame for his behavior on his earlier acceptance of evolution. Iā€™m not sure why Christians are so eager to prop up their beliefs with the rationalizations of a serial-killing madman. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/234 "2012-03-26T15:29:20Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > Your point is that an insane person will use whatever beliefs he has to justify his doing horrible things? Sure, I can go with that, but I have to say that Iā€™d rather a madman have actual, true beliefs, rather than fantasy ones. > > Dahmerā€™s father was an evangelical and creationist. After Jeffrey was in prison, his father sent him creationist/evangelical materials, and Jeffrey became an evangelical himself. At this time, he very conveniently chose to place the blame for his behavior on his earlier acceptance of evolution. > > Iā€™m not sure why Christians are so eager to prop up their beliefs with the rationalizations of a serial-killing madman. He claimed that he did not feel accountable to anyone but himself, which is in no way a common trait among atheists. He never claimed that he was doing it to further his belief as an atheist. It is convenient to ignore the religious individuals who were serial killers like Albert Fish, David Berkowitz or Elias Abuelazam. Harvey Carignan claimed to be ā€œAn instrument of God, one who was acting under His personal instructions. Murder, rape and mutilation are all part of a Grand Plan. God is a figure with a large hood and you canā€™t see his face.ā€ I am sure that all 49 of Gary Ridgwayā€™s victims would have preferred he not have had staunch religious beliefs. But really using serial killers to indicate anything is improper, their numbers are so tiny that there really isnā€™t any useful data to infer from them that can be applied to the general population. The reality is that the majority of people are not violent irrespective of their world view. ---
**Author:** ![Fairy\_Ana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Fairy\_Ana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fairy_Ana)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/235 "2012-03-26T15:47:22Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > Your point is that an insane person will use whatever beliefs he has to justify his doing horrible things? Sure, I can go with that, but I have to say that Iā€™d rather a madman have actual, true beliefs, rather than fantasy ones. Iā€™d rather there be no madman. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/236 "2012-03-26T15:47:38Z")
> [@Fairy\_Ana](#): > > Then read again what Trinopus wrote just above, he made it very clear. No, he didnā€™t. Youā€™d already said people should believe what they want, and he talks about believing in what you find personally comforting. Iā€™ve been asking you what we should do about beliefs without evidence, and how we figure out what to believe when thereā€™s no evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Fairy\_Ana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Fairy\_Ana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fairy_Ana)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/237 "2012-03-26T15:53:23Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > Iā€™m not sure why Christians are so eager to prop up their beliefs with the rationalizations of a serial-killing madman. Are you refering to me? Iā€™m not exactly Christian and I can name men from various beliefs that have killed people. Iā€™m not defending one belief by showing the faults in others, if that was your interpretation, you missed my point. ---
**Author:** ![Fairy\_Ana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Fairy\_Ana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fairy_Ana)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/238 "2012-03-26T16:05:44Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > No, he didnā€™t. Youā€™d already said people should believe what they want, and he talks about believing in what you find personally comforting. Iā€™ve been asking you what we should do about beliefs without evidence, and how we figure out what to believe when thereā€™s no evidence. No, I said people DO believe what they want. Everyone DOES believe in what they think is personally comforting. Those who live in free societies at least do. I was raised in a Christian society. I did not feel comfortable with itā€™s belief so I donā€™t follow Christian dogmas. I am telling plainly that evidence, in my opinion, does not apply to beliefs. If I believe in Love, there is no evidence that supports love. The belief in Love (or anything else) doesnā€™t define intelligence and doesnā€™t define character. People kill other people because of love and people do a great many things too because of love. If your set of beliefs requires evidence, than that is your opinion, you should be the one to decide what to do if you canā€™t find it. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/239 "2012-03-26T16:27:25Z")
> [@Fairy\_Ana](#): > > I am telling plainly that evidence, in my opinion, does not apply to beliefs. So your opinion is that people never look at evidence in deciding what to believe? I donā€™t suppose you have evidence to support that opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Fairy\_Ana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Fairy\_Ana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fairy_Ana)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/240 "2012-03-26T16:42:00Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > So your opinion is that people never look at evidence in deciding what to believe? I donā€™t suppose you have evidence to support that opinion. Not quite. My opinion - if we are talking about religion - is that there are those who never look at evidence, they believe in what is taught without skepticism (not something I am comfortable with). There are those who believe in things with subjective evidence (which would be my case). And there are those who believe in things with scientific evidence, which would be your case (am I right?) and my sisterā€™s case too. You chose to believe in things that are based on evidence because you feel you would be a fool in believing something without it, it would make you uncomfortable. In your case, if you do not have evidence, you dismiss it, am I right? And you have all the right to do so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836.md?page=13)