# I survived... beyond and back **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 8, 2011, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836 "2011-01-08T03:11:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/261 "2012-03-28T18:20:51Z")
> [@Fairy\_Ana](#): > > The Bible, which would be the guide to Christianity, is very susceptible to all sorts of interpretation. Don’t you think it is pausible that, in being so prone to interpretation, man can base his belief in demonizing humans and openly calling for barbaric practices if that is how he wishes to interpret the wholy scriptures? Religion is a man made institution, it’s basic purpose should idealy be a moral guide to people, a way to perfect the soul (for those who believe in souls anyway), but since it is men made and interpreted by men, than doesn’t the fault of it’s negative practice fall upon men? And who does your interpreting for you? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/262 "2012-03-28T18:34:48Z")
> [@Fairy\_Ana](#): > > The Bible, which would be the guide to Christianity, is very susceptible to all sorts of interpretation. Of course it is. That’s why it was written. Revelation is primarily about the then-present-day Roman Empire, for instance- something that’s gotten so lost over the years that most Christians don’t know it (and the nature of Christianity is such that they wouldn’t feel they had to know about it anyway). > [@](#): > > Religion is a man made institution, it’s basic purpose should idealy be a moral guide to people, a way to perfect the soul (for those who believe in souls anyway), but since it is men made and interpreted by men, than doesn’t the fault of it’s negative practice fall upon men? That would be nice, but since it’s only one reason religion developed in the first place, it’s not surprising that that’s not the only thing religion does. And since people came up with the entire enterprise in the first place, yes, the responsibility for that rests with people. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/263 "2012-03-28T21:48:04Z")
> [@Fairy\_Ana](#): > > The Bible, which would be the guide to Christianity, is very susceptible to all sorts of interpretation. But in many places it’s straightforwardly evil and erroneous. And Christianity is fundamentally an extremely evil belief system; the ones warping and misinterpreting it are the ones trying (and failing) to do good in its name. The bigots, the tyrants, the tormentors and killers; they are the ones following what have always been the core values of Christianity. > [@Fairy\_Ana](#): > > Religion is a man made institution, it’s basic purpose should idealy be a moral guide to people, a way to perfect the soul (for those who believe in souls anyway), but since it is men made and interpreted by men, than doesn’t the fault of it’s negative practice fall upon men? Religion is incapable of being a moral guide, and its purpose is to maintain and spread itself like any virus. And “ideally”, it would not exist. ---
**Author:** ![Fairy\_Ana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Fairy\_Ana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fairy_Ana)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/264 "2012-03-28T21:52:12Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > A very nice psychiatrist once suggested to me that I make the experiment, and become a believing Christian for a month, to see if it made me any happier. > > I chose not to…but, to be honest, it does seem like a valid experiment, if only in an entirely subjective sense. No double-blind, no control, almost zero statistical significance… But you could think of it as trying out a new anti-depression medicine for a month, to see if it makes any difference. Also subjective and poorly controlled, but it could, nevertheless, make someone’s life better. > > (Next on my list is to become a believer in Kali for a month, and murder several people to please her; who knows, it might improve my life quite a bit!) Instead of trying the religious beliefs for a month, I have another proposition for you or anyone who would like to try the experiment: We have all heard this before and it is very much taken for granted and forgotten in everyday life by many people: _do to others as you would have them do to you_. This is to me the most important moral principle, which I _try_ to follow. 😉 It is a very logical and effective moral guide (that can be stripped away from religion) and you would be surprised how hard it is to actually put this into practice because it makes you think of others before you act/speak, it urges you to discard selfishness, and the positive, selfless actions have a great tendency of throwing back positive reactions. If anyone actually takes the challenge, let me know how it goes. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/265 "2012-03-28T21:57:46Z")
> [@Fairy\_Ana](#): > > Instead of trying the religious beliefs for a month, I have another proposition for you or anyone who would like to try the experiment: We have all heard this before and it is very much taken for granted and forgotten in everyday life by many people: _do to others as you would have them do to you_. This is to me the most important moral principle, which I _try_ to follow. 😉 > > It is a very logical and effective moral guide (that can be stripped away from religion) and you would be surprised how hard it is to actually put this into practice because it makes you think of others before you act/speak, it urges you to discard selfishness, and the positive, selfless actions have a great tendency of throwing back positive reactions. If anyone actually takes the challenge, let me know how it goes. So, getting back to the topic at hand…does the total lack of verifiable evidence carry any weight when it comes to your belief in NDEs? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/266 "2012-03-28T21:58:15Z")
The Golden Rule is generally a good idea - and it also really doesn’t have anything to do with religion. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2012, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/267 "2012-03-29T03:54:06Z")
> [@Fairy\_Ana](#): > > . . . _do to others as you would have them do to you_. This is to me the most important moral principle, which I _try_ to follow. 😉 > . . . I’ve always preferred the contrapositive formula, “Do not do unto others what would be hateful to them.” In other words, not quite so much “Be good to people” as “Don’t be a stinker.” I also prefer the “negative utilitarian” approach to ethics: rather than endeavoring to increase the world’s happiness, I feel it more moral to try to reduce the world’s misery. (To which I have had weisenheimers say, “Cool! Let’s go out and kill poor people!” Not quite what I have in mind!) But in all of these cases, consideration of other people seems to be at the heart of a valid system of morals, and I agree with this interpretation. ---
**Author:** ![TravisT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea5d25/32.png) [@TravisT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TravisT)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/268 "2012-04-23T19:10:40Z")
I don’t know if anyone is still reading this thread, but I recently discovered it and found it interesting. I am on the fence with this subject. I think we are far from understanding consciousness and I think quantum mechanics implies that, through entanglement that consciousness can exist outside of the physical body. There are some physicists who argue that consciousness is not material. They suggest we are connected to the universe on a subatomic level, that transcends the body. I don’t know how I feel about that, but I will say that NO ONE knows and to disregard the unexplained with simple explanations is a common mistake made throughout history. Most people used to think the earth was the center of the universe and scoffed the fools who suggested otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/269 "2012-04-23T19:14:01Z")
That sounds like an entirely unscientific interpretation of the actual science, though. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/270 "2012-04-23T19:18:59Z")
> [@TravisT](#): > > I think quantum mechanics implies that, through entanglement that consciousness can exist outside of the physical body. I think you need a better understanding of quantum mechanics. > [@](#): > > There are some physicists who argue that consciousness is not material. They suggest we are connected to the universe on a subatomic level, that transcends the body. Name these physicists and cite their work. > [@](#): > > Most people used to think the earth was the center of the universe and scoffed the fools who suggested otherwise. Yeah, they laughed at Galileo. But they also laughed at Bozo the clown. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/271 "2012-04-23T19:22:07Z")
> [@TravisT](#): > > I think we are far from understanding consciousness and I think quantum mechanics implies that, through entanglement that consciousness can exist outside of the physical body. What part of Quantum Mechanics suggests this? > [@TravisT](#): > > There are some physicists who argue that consciousness is not material. They suggest we are connected to the universe on a subatomic level, that transcends the body. Which physicists? edited to add: upstaged by **DocCathode** ---
**Author:** ![chloes1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@chloes1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chloes1)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/272 "2012-04-23T21:28:35Z")
What a neat old thread! Funny thing is, I have had a NDE. Roughly 30 years ago… I tried (and very nearly succeeded) in killing myself. Which is btw a **terrible** idea ; you ought not to do it… Anyway, at 13 I meet my then unborn children, if that was a hallucination please God let me have more of 'em! It was a truly bizarre feeling to look into my newborn’s eyes and see the same eyes (that I saw then) looking back at me. I knew at 13 I would have a daughter that would be placed for adoption and why that was necessary, followed by my son 10 years later. I wish I had the words to communicate what I knew and saw then. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/273 "2012-04-23T21:32:52Z")
Isn’t it weird how people only tell us what their long-ago NDEs predicted they were going to do after they’ve already done it? I wonder if there is a reason for that. > [@chloes1](#): > > I tried (and very nearly succeeded) in killing myself. Which is btw a **terrible** idea ; you ought not to do it… […] if that was a hallucination please God let me have more of 'em! Incidentally this is what we in the business called “mixed messages.” I do know there are easier methods to hallucinate, but I haven’t tried them myself. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/274 "2012-04-23T21:34:15Z")
> [@chloes1](#): > > What a neat old thread! > > Funny thing is, I have had a NDE. Roughly 30 years ago… > > I tried (and very nearly succeeded) in killing myself. Which is btw a **terrible** idea ; you ought not to do it… > > Anyway, at 13 I meet my then unborn children, if that was a hallucination please God let me have more of 'em! It was a truly bizarre feeling to look into my newborn’s eyes and see the same eyes (that I saw then) looking back at me. > > I knew at 13 I would have a daughter that would be placed for adoption and why that was necessary, followed by my son 10 years later. > > I wish I had the words to communicate what I knew and saw then. Would you happen to have any solid evidence that you had an NDE? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/275 "2012-04-23T21:36:04Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Isn’t it weird how people only tell us what their long-ago NDEs predicted they were going to do after they’ve already done it? I wonder if there is a reason for that. Is “_post_diction” a word? If not, I’m coining it. ---
**Author:** ![chloes1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@chloes1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chloes1)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/276 "2012-04-23T21:47:55Z")
If by solid evidence you ambulance reports and hospital records, then I suppose so… this was 30 years ago though. I rarely mention the whole thing because frankly, who cares?? It was a turning point for me at that time, it seemed meaningful and important at a time when I desperately wanted to matter to someone. Whether it was real or a hallucination at this point doesn’t much matter, what matters is how I choose to deal with experience in the here and now. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Would you happen to have any solid evidence that you had an NDE? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/277 "2012-04-24T00:59:06Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Is “_post_diction” a word? If not, I’m coining it. It’s used fairly often in the paleontological sciences. The evidence pretty much all refers to the past, so we can hardly “predict” anything in paleontology. But we’ve been very successful at “postdictions,” such as the discoveries of various transitional forms between walking animals and whales. I _believe_ that Stephen Jay Gould had an essay on the word, but I can’t recall for sure. ---
**Author:** ![AEther](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@AEther](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AEther)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2012, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/278 "2012-11-03T17:38:52Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Don’t have to. If you can’t prove it is true, then it isn’t. No further debate is necessary. Pardon me good sir or ma’ am but um, how do you know that statement is true, how do you know that truth claim is true, how do you know that the “Don’t have to. If you can’t prove it is true, then it isn’t. No further debate is necessary.” or rather “if you can’t prove something is true then it’s automatically false” truth claim is true; did you prove THAT truth claim to be true beyond the slightest shadow of a doubt? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2012, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/279 "2012-11-03T21:24:18Z")
And the thread is brought back to life once again… ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2012, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/280 "2012-11-04T03:51:24Z")
But in a _Pet Sematary_ kind of way. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836.md?page=15)