# I survived... beyond and back **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 8, 2011, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836 "2011-01-08T03:11:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Fairy\_Ana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Fairy\_Ana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fairy_Ana)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2012, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/101 "2012-03-11T22:50:53Z")
By the way, I am loving this discussion with you guys. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2012, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/102 "2012-03-11T22:52:05Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > If there are no invisible spirits, then what have I been drinking? Visible spirits, obviously. The next time you’re in Portland, I’ll treat you to some excellent examples. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2012, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/103 "2012-03-11T22:58:03Z")
> [@Fairy\_Ana](#): > > And how is my standard lower if I demand more scientific proof that a chemically altered brain does not open the conscious to a spiritual perception? I still think the comparison is valid and we can throw the burned of poof to each other like a hot potato. Because your belief is extraordinary, literally extra-ordinary, because it demands that we accept there is an invisible world inhabited by invisible spirits. Your belief system says every outlandish mythology anyone can imagine must be true, unless I can disprove it. What a chaotic world you live in! “Whales speak French at the bottom of the sea!” Prove me wrong; otherwise, my anecdote is intellectually equivalent to your skepticism. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2012, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/104 "2012-03-11T23:40:23Z")
If you want to get technical, all claims demand evidence. In practice, most claims are so plausible that people just accept them. For example- I live in Philadelphia. You could demand a cite and argue over what an acceptable bit of evidence would be. But seeing as how I’ve talked about living in Philly in many other posts and that it’s a fairly plausible claim, no other poster has ever challenged me on it. But if somebody did challenge me, the burden of proof would be on me. If you make a claim, then it is up to you to prove it. But the claim of an NDE being caused by the soul leaving the body and meeting spirits is NOT a plausible claim. If the soul exists, why can’t science detect it? Ditto these spirits? So people will generally call for evidence. We accept that people report the sensations of an NDE BUT we disagree on what caused these sensations. To skeptics, NDE’s are just a kind of dream or hallucination. To believers, they are proof of the soul, spirits, and afterlife. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/105 "2012-03-12T04:53:03Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > If there are no invisible spirits, then what have I been drinking? Transparent spirits. You can still see that _something_ is in the glass. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/106 "2012-03-12T14:40:02Z")
> [@Fairy\_Ana](#): > > Also, there have been NDE reports of people that have been under hypothermic cardiac arrest. There’s usually a problem in figuring out _when_ the NDE occurred. From what I can tell, they usually take place while the person is oxygen deprived and alive, but they’re reported as something that happened “while the person was dead.” > [@Fairy\_Ana](#): > > Yet, this does not contradict the idea that a brain that is less physically/neurologically active may gain a higher spiritual awareness. You can define things like “spiritual awareness” as pretty much whatever you want, and I think people can gain insight from pretty much any experience. But that’s not proof that NDEs are something other than experiences caused by oxygen deprivation. ---
**Author:** ![Fairy\_Ana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Fairy\_Ana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fairy_Ana)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2012, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/107 "2012-03-13T13:53:22Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Because your belief is extraordinary, literally extra-ordinary, because it demands that we accept there is an invisible world inhabited by invisible spirits. Extraordinary means (literally) not ordinary, exceptional, unique. The first airplane built was extraordinary, now airplanes are quite ordinary. To me the idea that we have a soul is very ordinary, I believe it to be a natural phenomenon and I’m very, very far from being the only one who thinks this - in other words, the existance of a soul is an ordinary belief. Furthermore, it’s a theory or belief that has been present ever since ancient history (Off the top of my head I can think of Socrates, as one who believed in existance of a soul). So the existance of souls is believed by a whole lot of people all over the world and it has been present since ancient times. I fail to see what is so extraordinary about it and the fact that you do not believe in souls does not make believing in them an extraordinary fact. Now that I ruled out that the belief on the existance of souls is extraordinary, let’s analyse invisibility. Do you mean to affirt that everything that is invisible is also inexistent? I would be very carefull with that affirmation. > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Your belief system says every outlandish mythology anyone can imagine must be true, unless I can disprove it. What a chaotic world you live in! My world is the same as your world. Unless you are an alien. 😃 My life is actually very peacefull. I love reasoning and logic and I base my action on ethics and morality. Nope… no chaos here so far. The belief in spirituality is only turned chaotic and harmfull when ill willed people invent trecherous, blinding religions to suck the believers in, to exclude or persecute non believers or to gain riches. But anything man puts it’s hand on can either turn good or bad. When you sayd outlandish mythologies I thought of cyclops, minotaurs and fauns… I do find them fascinating but they don’t really compute into my beliefs, sorry to dissapoint you. > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > “Whales speak French at the bottom of the sea!” Prove me wrong; otherwise, my anecdote is intellectually equivalent to your skepticism. The link bellow are Wales comunicating at the bottom of the sea. You can find many in YouTube. I speak some French and I can assure you that the wales in these videos aren’t speaking French. 😃 [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/j6EMZnIyZX0/hqdefault.jpg?sqp=-oaymwEmCOADEOgC8quKqQMa8AEB-AH-BIAC4AOKAgwIABABGBMgPSh_MA8=&rs=AOn4CLAim8Mjs1tnPWhODwEeusREeGqmcQ "The sound of the giants - whale sounds") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6EMZnIyZX0) ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2012, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/108 "2012-03-13T14:04:40Z")
> [@Fairy\_Ana](#): > > When you sayd outlandish mythologies I thought of cyclops, minotaurs and fauns… I do find them fascinating but they don’t really compute into my beliefs, sorry to dissapoint you. Why not? Did someone prove they didn’t exist? My point is, how do you distinguish between “ordinary” invisible spirits, and those that strain your credulty? I use the scientific method; what yardstick do you use to determine what is real, and what isn’t? ---
**Author:** ![Fairy\_Ana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Fairy\_Ana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fairy_Ana)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2012, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/109 "2012-03-13T14:22:12Z")
> [@Fairy\_Ana](#): > > The belief in spirituality is only turned chaotic and harmful when ill willed people invent treacherous, blinding religions to suck the believers in, to exclude or persecute non believers or to gain riches. I meant, “The belief in spirituality is only turned chaotic and harmful when ill willed people invent treacherous, blinding religions to suck the believers in, to exclude or persecute people for different reasons, or to gain riches”. Sorry for the thousand misspells I make. English is my second language. I’m working on that. ---
**Author:** ![Fairy\_Ana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Fairy\_Ana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fairy_Ana)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2012, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/110 "2012-03-13T14:54:06Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Why not? Did someone prove they didn’t exist? > > My point is, how do you distinguish between “ordinary” invisible spirits, and those that strain your credulty? I use the scientific method; what yardstick do you use to determine what is real, and what isn’t? My yardsitck would have to be purely observation/experience-based Empiricism, not the philosophy of science Empiricism which “emphasizes evidence, especially as discovered in experiments”. (Wikipedia ) Since I have yet to shake hands with a minotaur and invite it to tea, I do not believe it exists. My family and I have experienced many things which science still cannot provide any argument as convincing as the spiritual explanations. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2012, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/111 "2012-03-13T15:11:43Z")
> [@Fairy\_Ana](#): > > My family and I have experienced many things which science still cannot provide any argument as convincing as the spiritual explanations. My experience has been that people who make statements like this have never exposed their experiences to actual examination. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2012, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/112 "2012-03-13T15:23:46Z")
> [@Fairy\_Ana](#): > > My yardsitck would have to be purely observation/experience-based Empiricism, not the philosophy of science Empiricism which “emphasizes evidence, especially as discovered in experiments”. I have never experienced the presence of an invisible spirit. What should I believe? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2012, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/113 "2012-03-13T15:42:23Z")
> [@Fairy\_Ana](#): > > Extraordinary means (literally) not ordinary, exceptional, unique. The first airplane built was extraordinary, now airplanes are quite ordinary. A near-death experience is not an ordinary event, and yes, things like spirits are “not ordinary” and “exceptional.” Focusing on one word in the definition doesn’t help. The issue is that you’re talking about something that hasn’t been proved to exist, and which contradicts a lot of what we do know. That’s what makes it exceptional. > [@](#): > > I fail to see what is so extraordinary about it … and therefore you don’t have to bother to make a case? > [@](#): > > Now that I ruled out that the belief on the existance of souls is extraordinary You didn’t rule anything out. You said you don’t believe something is extraordinary, apparently because if it’s not extraordinary, you don’t have to provide much in the way of evidence. > [@](#): > > Do you mean to affirt that everything that is invisible is also inexistent? He clearly did not say this. > [@Fairy\_Ana](#): > > I meant, “The belief in spirituality is only turned chaotic and harmful when ill willed people invent treacherous, blinding religions to suck the believers in, to exclude or persecute people for different reasons, or to gain riches”. In other words, it turns harmful all the time. 😉 And no, the problems are not limited to persecution, greed, and religion. Encouraging people to believe in nonsense can also cause problems. ---
**Author:** ![basefifty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cdc98d/32.png) [@basefifty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/basefifty)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2012, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/114 "2012-03-13T15:57:00Z")
1. The fact that these are called _Near_-Death Experiences should tell you something 2. It’s convenient that Christians experience a Christian version of the afterlife 3. What language does a 2-month old aborted fetus speak in heaven, and what does it look like? ---
**Author:** ![Fairy\_Ana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Fairy\_Ana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fairy_Ana)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2012, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/115 "2012-03-13T16:15:22Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > My experience has been that people who make statements like this have never exposed their experiences to actual examination. I really am not going to expose my life experience here, but invite anyone to chat with me if they are interested in examining my experience. You can google chat with me: nanarita 23 at gmail .com (without the spaces). ---
**Author:** ![Fairy\_Ana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Fairy\_Ana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fairy_Ana)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2012, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/116 "2012-03-13T16:16:33Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I have never experienced the presence of an invisible spirit. What should I believe? Whatever you want. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2012, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/117 "2012-03-13T16:22:15Z")
> [@Fairy\_Ana](#): > > Whatever you want. He’s asking you if the spirits are real. ---
**Author:** ![Fairy\_Ana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Fairy\_Ana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fairy_Ana)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2012, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/118 "2012-03-13T16:55:22Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > A near-death experience is not an ordinary event, and yes, things like spirits are “not ordinary” and “exceptional.” Focusing on one word in the definition doesn’t help. The issue is that you’re talking about something that hasn’t been proved to exist, and which contradicts a lot of what we do know. That’s what makes it exceptional. Tell me about quantum theories, have they all been proven and are they all without contradictions? > **[Common Sense Science | Contradictions - Commonsensescience](https://www.hotelsjourney.com/contradictions.html)** > **[Relational Quantum Mechanics (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)](https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qm-relational/)** If quantum theory still has contradictions, why disregard the possibility of the existance of the soul if science hasn’t even managed to fully, completely understand the basic formation of matter? > [@Marley23](#): > > … and therefore you don’t have to bother to make a case? I don’t understand your question. > [@Marley23](#): > > You didn’t rule anything out. You said you don’t believe something is extraordinary, apparently because if it’s not extraordinary, you don’t have to provide much in the way of evidence. I clearly did not say that. I said believing in the existence of a soul is not an extraordinary occurance. To scientifically prove the soul exists, you clearly have to provide evidence that is scientifically accepted. And how would we know that NDEs do not occur much more often than we think they do if up till very recent, no one was keeping track of it? > [@Marley23](#): > > In other words, it turns harmful all the time. 😉 And no, the problems are not limited to persecution, greed, and religion. Encouraging people to believe in nonsense can also cause problems. Ideally, people should believe whatever suits them. 🙂 But I will take you on this last note on another post because I am starving right now and I need to go lunch. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2012, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/119 "2012-03-13T17:22:02Z")
> [@Fairy\_Ana](#): > > Tell me about quantum theories, have they all been proven and are they all without contradictions? From what I know about quantum mechanics, it’s well accepted and does a good job explaining a lot of things. I’m not sure what you mean by “quantum theories.” > [@](#): > > [Common Sense Science | Contradictions - Commonsensescience](http://www.commonsensescience.org/contradictions.html) This looks like a bunch of creationist nonsense, and I wouldn’t accept anything is says. > [@](#): > > If quantum theory still has contradictions, why disregard the possibility of the existance of the soul if science hasn’t even managed to fully, completely understand the basic formation of matter? This question doesn’t make sense. It’s a little bit like saying that if we don’t have a full grip on the behavior of matter under quantum mechanics, we can’t be certain how many arms people have or whether the Earth revolves around the Sun. > [@](#): > > I don’t understand your question. You said souls aren’t extraordinary. I was asking “So what?” You don’t think it’s extraordinary or that NDEs are rare, but it’s still a big claim and it requires strong evidence because it gets into the realm of proving that consciousness exists outside of the brain and that people can continue exist after they die. Neither of those have been proved, nor has there been any solid explanation of how they could happen. > [@](#): > > And how would we know that NDEs do not occur much more often than we think they do if up till very recent, no one was keeping track of it? It doesn’t matter. > [@](#): > > Ideally, people should believe whatever suits them. 🙂 Whether it’s true or not? Does it matter at all? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2012, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/120 "2012-03-13T17:29:57Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > This looks like a bunch of creationist nonsense, and I wouldn’t accept anything is says. Creationist and rife with bad science. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836.md?page=7)