# I survived... beyond and back **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 8, 2011, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836 "2011-01-08T03:11:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2012, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/121 "2012-03-13T17:31:16Z")
> [@Fairy\_Ana](#): > > Ideally, people should believe whatever suits them. Many people believe that life does not begin at conception. Should they be allowed to choose abortion? ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2012, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/122 "2012-03-13T17:34:30Z")
I haven’t read the thread, I’m just posting some book [recommendations](http://www.amazon.com/The-Handbook-Near-Death-Experiences-Investigation/dp/0313358648/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&qid=1331659817&sr=8-13). > [@](#): > > Experts from around the world share the history and current state of near-death experience (NDE) knowledge. They explore controversies in the field, offer stories from their research, and express their hopes for the future of investigation into this fascinating phenomenon. > > As modern medical techniques for resuscitation advance, NDEs are more frequently reported. These include more than the popular notions of moving through a tunnel or seeing a light. They also include people, once revived, knowing things their knowledge of which can’t currently be explained. As The Handbook of Near-Death Experiences: Thirty Years of Investigation makes clear, great controversy exists in the medical and psychological fields concerning NDEs. Are they caused by physiological changes in the brain, or are they biological reactions to oxygen loss or impending death? Are they a product of changing states of consciousness? Or are they caused by something else altogether? All of these ideas and more are discussed in this unique and comprehensive volume. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2012, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/123 "2012-03-13T18:14:13Z")
> [@](#): > > They also include people, once revived, knowing things their knowledge of which can’t currently be explained. No, they haven’t. Every one of these cases that has been examined by neutral observers has come up lacking. If that’s in the blurb for the book, I don’t have high hopes for the actual content. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2012, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/124 "2012-03-13T20:52:12Z")
> [@Fairy\_Ana](#): > > I really am not going to expose my life experience here, . If you’re unwilling to share your relevant experiences, you SHOULD NOT HAVE BROUGHT THEM UP. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/125 "2012-03-14T00:59:38Z")
> [@Fairy\_Ana](#): > > Ideally, people should believe whatever suits them. 🙂 That’s literally advocacy for insanity. No; people ideally should _believe what is true_. Believing something that is false won’t make it true; it just means that the person who believes it is living in a fantasy world. If I fling myself out a window because I believe I can fly, I’ll plummet no matter how hard I believe. Anyone who _actually acted_ according to your ideal would quickly end up in a prison, hospital, or dead. ---
**Author:** ![Fairy\_Ana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Fairy\_Ana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fairy_Ana)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/126 "2012-03-14T01:54:32Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > If you’re unwilling to share your relevant experiences, you SHOULD NOT HAVE BROUGHT THEM UP. I have told you where to go if you want me to share my life. nanarita 23 at gmail .com (without the spaces). No one has bothered contacting me through my e-mail so I guess no one is interested after all. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/127 "2012-03-14T01:57:24Z")
> [@Fairy\_Ana](#): > > I have told you where to go if you want me to share my life. nanarita 23 at gmail .com (without the spaces). No one has bothered contacting me through my e-mail so I guess no one is interested after all. I am interested in debating relevant anecdotes (which again, you introduced in the first place) **in this thread**. ---
**Author:** ![Fairy\_Ana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Fairy\_Ana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fairy_Ana)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/128 "2012-03-14T01:58:24Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > That’s literally advocacy for insanity. No; people ideally should _believe what is true_. Believing something that is false won’t make it true; it just means that the person who believes it is living in a fantasy world. If I fling myself out a window because I believe I can fly, I’ll plummet no matter how hard I believe. Anyone who _actually acted_ according to your ideal would quickly end up in a prison, hospital, or dead. I’m talking about believing or not in existence of the soul. If you can’t prove the soul isn’t true, then you can’t say that what they believe in is false. ---
**Author:** ![Fairy\_Ana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Fairy\_Ana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fairy_Ana)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/129 "2012-03-14T02:04:24Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > I am interested in debating relevant anecdotes (which again, you introduced in the first place) **in this thread**. Thank you for regarding my anecdotes as relevant. I’m very flattered. If you don’t have a google account there is also skype. Are you more comfortable with skype? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/130 "2012-03-14T02:07:13Z")
> [@Fairy\_Ana](#): > > I’m talking about believing or not in existence of the soul. If you can’t prove the soul isn’t true, then you can’t say that what they believe in is false. If it is your proposal that a soul exists, _because we have no evidence to date as to its existence_, it is up to _you_ to provide evidence that it does exist. Without positive evidence, the null point is that it doesn’t exist. What have evidence do you have that will take the existence of a soul from “does not exist” to “might exist”? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/131 "2012-03-14T02:07:56Z")
I am comfortable with posting evidence in this thread. Again, if you didn’t want to share it in this thread you should not have brought it up in this debate. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/132 "2012-03-14T02:08:33Z")
> [@Fairy\_Ana](#): > > Thank you for regarding my anecdotes as relevant. I’m very flattered. If you don’t have a google account there is also skype. Are you more comfortable with skype? Are you uncomfortable with making claims and submitting evidence in public? ---
**Author:** ![Fairy\_Ana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Fairy\_Ana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fairy_Ana)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/133 "2012-03-14T02:27:54Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Are you uncomfortable with making claims and submitting evidence in public? Oh, now anecdotes are evidence! Well, someone had a change of heart. 😃 My experiences are subjective, I interpret them they way I see logical. I have no illusion that my anecdotes will convince anyone because I suppose to you subjective experiences are not scientific evidence because they cannot be tested in a lab… at least not yet. It was asked of me what my criteria of believing in something is, and it is based on observation and experience. My observation and experience is not going to convince the people here of anything because there is nothing I can say that hasn’t been said by many other people who have had the same experiences. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/134 "2012-03-14T02:34:20Z")
> [@Fairy\_Ana](#): > > I’m talking about believing or not in existence of the soul. If you can’t prove the soul isn’t true, then you can’t say that what they believe in is false. Yes, I can. Prove me wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Fairy\_Ana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Fairy\_Ana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fairy_Ana)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/135 "2012-03-14T02:46:26Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Many people believe that life does not begin at conception. Should they be allowed to choose abortion? How is this relevant in this thread? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/136 "2012-03-14T02:50:21Z")
> [@Fairy\_Ana](#): > > How is this relevant in this thread? You said people should believe what suits them. If I believe that a blastocyst is not human, should I be constrained by the beliefs of those who do? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/137 "2012-03-14T03:04:08Z")
> [@Fairy\_Ana](#): > > I’m talking about believing or not in existence of the soul. If you can’t prove the soul isn’t true, then you can’t say that what they believe in is false. The soul is as about as disproven as anything can be in the real world. It violates physical laws, there’s no evidence for it, what evidence there is is _against_ it, and it’s clearly a concept that originated entirely in myth. If it wasn’t a popular religious/superstitious concept, people would just call it disproved instead of playing word games - but since it is a popular superstition, it gets a place of undeserved intellectual privilege. You are doing what believers always do; demanding that your beliefs should be taken seriously, because your beliefs are utterly baseless and can’t stand on their own. ---
**Author:** ![Semjaazah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b19c9b/32.png) [@Semjaazah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Semjaazah)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/138 "2012-03-14T03:07:30Z")
The belief in things which cannot be adequately empirically explained, which do not stand up to proper scientific analysis, which require faith in their inherent veracity in order to justify and which rely on a lack of evidence to the contrary to be believed and have none supporting their claims are all purely symptomatic of a lack of critical analytical thinking. The ‘science doesn’t have the one hundred per-cent foolproof explanation of this, ergo any superstitious nonsense will do’ attitude typifies religious people and ‘new-agey’ spiritualists who seem to have a predilection for taking things for granted based on faith, rather than logic and rationality. If there is no evident objective truth to a claim, and no strong, rational supporting evidence, then you shouldn’t believe it nor claim that you ‘know’ it to be true, or even that it’s a valid point of view. The sooner we have done with all manner of silly superstition, the better for the human race in general. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/139 "2012-03-14T05:42:27Z")
> [@Fairy\_Ana](#): > > If you can’t prove the soul isn’t true, then you can’t say that what they believe in is false. If you can’t prove it’s real (and you can’t), why should anyone take seriously your belief that it’s real? ---
**Author:** ![Fairy\_Ana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Fairy\_Ana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fairy_Ana)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2012, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836/140 "2012-03-14T13:21:32Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Whether it’s true or not? Does it matter at all? > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > That’s literally advocacy for insanity. No; people ideally should _believe what is true_. Believing something that is false won’t make it true; it just means that the person who believes it is living in a fantasy world. You suppose ideally we should all be atheist. My point is that people are free to choose their religion and also free to dismiss it altogether. Where is the insanity or problem in this? There are honest, good and intelligent people regardless of their religious or non religious belief. The opposite is also true. To say that everyone should believe in one line of thinking is wishful thinking. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > If I fling myself out a window because I believe I can fly, I’ll plummet no matter how hard I believe. Unless you use your intelligence to support your belief and put a wing suit on and fling yourself from a mountaintop high enough where the current would carry you. Like this: https://www.youtube.com/embed/fx6AE2z7OP0?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Anyone who _actually acted_ according to your ideal would quickly end up in a prison, hospital, or dead. My ideal vision of what people should believe in (an unfortunately many don’t) is to believe in ethics, in respecting oneself, in respecting others and in working honestly. I don’t see how this will make people go to jail, hospital or dead. Please enlighten me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-survived-beyond-and-back/566836.md?page=8)