# I swiftly herewith consign to the pit, the ignorant clowns who misconstrue "its" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 11, 2012, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-swiftly-herewith-consign-to-the-pit-the-ignorant-clowns-who-misconstrue-its/627871 "2012-07-11T05:44:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-swiftly-herewith-consign-to-the-pit-the-ignorant-clowns-who-misconstrue-its/627871/341 "2012-07-31T18:56:23Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > I quoted your own words back at you. Moron. That’s not the speaking for me I was referring to. And I don’t think I ever called anyone a moron either - that was your little flourish. You know, this whole debate strikes me as a bit like other social conventions, such as dress. Fashion and dress “rules” were partly invented by common use only, with a little help from elites and authorities. Most of the dress codes we have now are based on nothing more than enforcement of existing arbitrary norms. Men wear strips of silk around their necks because other men do. Yet we still have dress codes, both mandatory and socially upheld. And most people understand why, and most expect them to be upheld. They differ from place to place, and there’s plenty of flexibility built into them, and some people push their limits. But few people want to do away with all of them. They serve a purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-swiftly-herewith-consign-to-the-pit-the-ignorant-clowns-who-misconstrue-its/627871/342 "2012-07-31T19:01:15Z")
And using cite as a noun is like running naked through the town square? Got it, crazypants. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-swiftly-herewith-consign-to-the-pit-the-ignorant-clowns-who-misconstrue-its/627871/343 "2012-07-31T19:44:59Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > And using cite as a noun is like running naked through the town square? Got it, crazypants. Nope. You’re doing that ridiculous idiotic overreaction bullshit thing again. Are you my wife or something? Go have a beer and relax. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-swiftly-herewith-consign-to-the-pit-the-ignorant-clowns-who-misconstrue-its/627871/344 "2012-07-31T19:50:13Z")
I’m overreacting? I’m not having a hissyfit over the word cite. When come back, bring perspective. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-swiftly-herewith-consign-to-the-pit-the-ignorant-clowns-who-misconstrue-its/627871/345 "2012-07-31T20:12:56Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > It shouldn’t be though. It’s just another error slowly becoming correct through common use. I don’t think it’s an error at all. I think we are seeing _cite_ evolve out of message board communities to carry the distinct connotation of a reference provided online as part of some form of online discourse, (in contrast to a formal reference in printed material, especially of an academic nature). Of all things, I find this to be a bizarrely arbitrary objection. [Clipping](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipping_(morphology)) is a one of the more common ways for words to evolve in order to assume more specific connotations. Do you also object to the use of _bike_, and demand that everyone say _bicycle_? Do you object to _math_, and demand that everyone say _mathematics_? 😕😕 ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2012, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-swiftly-herewith-consign-to-the-pit-the-ignorant-clowns-who-misconstrue-its/627871/346 "2012-07-31T20:20:41Z")
Of course not, because like all Jeremiahs, he hasn’t actually thought about his objections. He’s stumbled across it or, more likely, been told by someone that he should object to the usage and the result is a flood of _o tempora o mores_-esque complaints. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-swiftly-herewith-consign-to-the-pit-the-ignorant-clowns-who-misconstrue-its/627871/347 "2012-08-01T00:27:15Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Of course not, because like all Jeremiahs, he hasn’t actually thought about his objections. He’s stumbled across it or, more likely, been told by someone that he should object to the usage and the result is a flood of _o tempora o mores_-esque complaints. I suggest a Belgian beer. It will relax you. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-swiftly-herewith-consign-to-the-pit-the-ignorant-clowns-who-misconstrue-its/627871/348 "2012-08-01T00:28:30Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > I don’t think it’s an error at all. I think we are seeing _cite_ evolve out of message board communities to carry the distinct connotation of a reference provided online as part of some form of online discourse, (in contrast to a formal reference in printed material, especially of an academic nature). That’s a nice way of saying it’s an error that’s slowly becoming accepted and will soon no longer be an error. > [@](#): > > Of all things, I find this to be a bizarrely arbitrary objection. [Clipping](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipping_(morphology)) is a one of the more common ways for words to evolve in order to assume more specific connotations. Do you also object to the use of _bike_, and demand that everyone say _bicycle_? Do you object to _math_, and demand that everyone say _mathematics_? 😕😕 No. I have no problem with the evolution of language. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-swiftly-herewith-consign-to-the-pit-the-ignorant-clowns-who-misconstrue-its/627871/349 "2012-08-01T00:39:41Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > I’m overreacting? I’m not having a hissyfit over the word cite. When come back, bring perspective. Nor am I. Saying that I’m having a hissy-fit is the overreaction on your part. I wonder if any of you are professionals in the language biz? English professors, writers, editors, etc? ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-swiftly-herewith-consign-to-the-pit-the-ignorant-clowns-who-misconstrue-its/627871/350 "2012-08-01T01:53:50Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > That’s a nice way of saying it’s an error that’s slowly becoming accepted and will soon no longer be an error. No, it isn’t, because “error” implies that people are doing something “wrong”–that they are violating something. On the contrary, they’re filling a need by adapting one word to express a new connotation. By using this kind of terminology you are refusing to accept how language actually works; to complain about it is to complain about the very nature of language. It’s like saying a flower is the “wrong” color because you can’t find it in your guidebook. Just because you can’t find _cite_ in the dictionary today as a noun doesn’t mean that it’s an “error” to use it that way. And it certainly doesn’t mean that people “shouldn’t” use as such–that they should prohibit themselves from doing so–until the day you can find it listed as a noun. Dictionaries _ **follow** _ usage, not vice versa. That’s the fundamental concept you need to understand and accept. Granted, there might be certain rare contexts (such as academic writing), that are by nature very conservative, where one might be better advised to avoid such usage at this time, but an internet message board certainly isn’t one of them. That’s another concept people need to understand: acceptable usage depends entirely upon context and purpose, and so in these situations you can’t make absolute statements such as, “Using _cite_ as a noun is an error.” The term “error” has no role here. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-swiftly-herewith-consign-to-the-pit-the-ignorant-clowns-who-misconstrue-its/627871/351 "2012-08-01T01:59:32Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > I wonder if any of you are professionals in the language biz? English professors, writers, editors, etc? MA in linguistics, BA English, college instructor (English), occasional writer and editor. But so? You don’t have to be a professional to understand these things. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-swiftly-herewith-consign-to-the-pit-the-ignorant-clowns-who-misconstrue-its/627871/352 "2012-08-01T03:23:56Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Saying that I’m having a hissy-fit is the overreaction on your part. Uh huh. Meanwhile, Captain Deflection, you haven’t explained why bike is unobjectionable but cite is an error. And don’t just say common usage, because they both are commonly used. Explain what has secured bike its status as a word that cite lacks. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-swiftly-herewith-consign-to-the-pit-the-ignorant-clowns-who-misconstrue-its/627871/353 "2012-08-01T12:45:47Z")
Bike has Hell’s Angels on its side. Cite just has some nerds. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-swiftly-herewith-consign-to-the-pit-the-ignorant-clowns-who-misconstrue-its/627871/354 "2012-08-01T13:02:46Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > MA in linguistics, BA English, college instructor (English), occasional writer and editor. But so? You don’t have to be a professional to understand these things. True. But a pro is going to understand, and appreciate, the description/proscription tension. More importantly, a pro will always do proscription at some point. It’s impossible to be a pro without it. You have certain rules that you enforce, regardless of where the rules came from. Those who insist that there are no rules, or that the fact that they change through common use makes them pretty much non-existent, couldn’t possibly function as a pro. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-swiftly-herewith-consign-to-the-pit-the-ignorant-clowns-who-misconstrue-its/627871/355 "2012-08-01T13:04:02Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Uh huh. > > Meanwhile, Captain Deflection, you haven’t explained why bike is unobjectionable but cite is an error. And don’t just say common usage, because they both are commonly used. Explain what has secured bike its status as a word that cite lacks. I’m done talking to you. I don’t appreciate your aggressive, disrespectful tone. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-swiftly-herewith-consign-to-the-pit-the-ignorant-clowns-who-misconstrue-its/627871/356 "2012-08-01T13:54:09Z")
In other words, you can’t prove your argument. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-swiftly-herewith-consign-to-the-pit-the-ignorant-clowns-who-misconstrue-its/627871/357 "2012-08-01T14:21:15Z")
Ooh, that reminds me of this: > [@Bierce](#): > > The electric light invades the dunnest deep of Hades. > Cries Pluto, 'twixt his snores: “O tempora! O mores!” Funny, considering he was bemoaning the sullying of language :p. ---
**Author:** ![JeffB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeffb/32/188_2.png) [@JeffB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JeffB)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-swiftly-herewith-consign-to-the-pit-the-ignorant-clowns-who-misconstrue-its/627871/358 "2012-08-01T14:30:01Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > Just because you can’t find _cite_ in the dictionary today as a noun doesn’t mean that it’s an “error” to use it that way. Of course, you can find _cite_ as a noun in the dictionary, making his argument all the more ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-swiftly-herewith-consign-to-the-pit-the-ignorant-clowns-who-misconstrue-its/627871/359 "2012-08-01T15:14:09Z")
> [@JeffB](#): > > Of course, you can find _cite_ as a noun in the dictionary, making his argument all the more ridiculous. It _shouldn’t_ be in the dictionary as a noun. \*That \*is my argument. If this were simply about what’s in dictionaries, we wouldn’t need a thread to debate it, we’d just look up stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2012, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-swiftly-herewith-consign-to-the-pit-the-ignorant-clowns-who-misconstrue-its/627871/360 "2012-08-01T15:29:27Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > It _shouldn’t_ be in the dictionary as a noun. \*That \*is my argument. And you have yet to explain why or provide any evidence. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-swiftly-herewith-consign-to-the-pit-the-ignorant-clowns-who-misconstrue-its/627871.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-swiftly-herewith-consign-to-the-pit-the-ignorant-clowns-who-misconstrue-its/627871.md?page=19)