# I swiftly herewith consign to the pit, the ignorant clowns who misconstrue "its" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 11, 2012, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-swiftly-herewith-consign-to-the-pit-the-ignorant-clowns-who-misconstrue-its/627871 "2012-07-11T05:44:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-swiftly-herewith-consign-to-the-pit-the-ignorant-clowns-who-misconstrue-its/627871/101 "2012-07-12T17:18:36Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > In every single one of these, you are wrong, because words may have multiple “parts of speech”, and, indeed, it is extraordinarily common for a word originating as one “part of speech” to develop a sympathetic sense as another. But not in the case of these words. > [@](#): > > It is also common for the same word to have multiple variants in a particular part of speech, often with different connotations. Thus, “cite” and “citation” can both be nouns, “service” and “serve” can both be verbs, and “reveal” and “revelation” can both be nouns. No, that’s not true. It may be true soon as common use overtakes the current rules, but if you try to say that on an English test, you’ll flunk. No proscriptive dictionary will say that either, though descriptive ones may at this point. And another example: invite. It’s a verb, not a noun, though it is quickly becoming a noun. The correct noun is “invitation.” ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-swiftly-herewith-consign-to-the-pit-the-ignorant-clowns-who-misconstrue-its/627871/102 "2012-07-12T17:19:43Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > I think I’ve brought this book up before but I really think it’s worthwhile to read [The Fight For English: How Language Pundits Ate, Shot and Left](http://www.amazon.com/The-Fight-English-Language-Pundits/dp/019920764X) as an after dinner mint to Truss and other language mavens. Looking at the prices on amazon though, you may want to check it out of the library, geeze. It’s good but I don’t know if it’s 40 bucks good. 40 buck’s? ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-swiftly-herewith-consign-to-the-pit-the-ignorant-clowns-who-misconstrue-its/627871/103 "2012-07-12T17:22:02Z")
And what, pray tell, is the difference between a pr **e** scriptive dictionary and a descriptive one? Which one is my webster? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-swiftly-herewith-consign-to-the-pit-the-ignorant-clowns-who-misconstrue-its/627871/104 "2012-07-12T17:27:18Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > And what, pray tell, is the difference between a pr **e** scriptive dictionary and a descriptive one? Which one is my webster? Are you asking, or making a rhetorical point? If you’re asking: > **[The Two Kinds of Dictionaries](http://englishplus.com/news/news1100.htm)** > > The Two Kinds of Dictionaries This difference is at the heart of this and every debate about language. You have to be careful not to come out too hard on either side. After all, many of the rules we follow now were simply errors and mistakes that previous generations made that became cemented into the language. If you’re making a point, please elaborate. (Yeah, just noticed that I wrote “proscriptive.” Freudian slip I guess). ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-swiftly-herewith-consign-to-the-pit-the-ignorant-clowns-who-misconstrue-its/627871/105 "2012-07-12T17:34:38Z")
Come down too hard on either side? What does that even mean? Descriptivism looks at the way people actually speak the language and records and analyzes that usage. It’s interesting and informative and takes into account past history and usage. Prescriptivism looks at a mythical golden age that moves around but is always safely a generation or so ago and says “write like that.” Much less useful. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-swiftly-herewith-consign-to-the-pit-the-ignorant-clowns-who-misconstrue-its/627871/106 "2012-07-12T17:45:34Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Come down too hard on either side? What does that even mean? Descriptivism looks at the way people actually speak the language and records and analyzes that usage. It’s interesting and informative and takes into account past history and usage. Prescriptivism looks at a mythical golden age that moves around but is always safely a generation or so ago and says “write like that.” Much less useful. If there were absolutely no prescriptivism, anyone could just make up any words and rules and definitions they wanted, even before a consensus developed. This thread is proof that prescription - people consciously following rules and expecting others to in order to communicate - is part of, as you put it, part of the way people actually speak the language. They constantly reinforce rules, and no just on boards like this one or in English classrooms, but in the real world. It is not a golden age a generation ago, it is right now. If you don’t believe me, go use all kinds of slang and improper use etc. and see what the reaction is. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-swiftly-herewith-consign-to-the-pit-the-ignorant-clowns-who-misconstrue-its/627871/107 "2012-07-12T17:51:16Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > 40 buck’s? If that is too much for you, you can get the paperback instead of the hardcover for $51.21. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-swiftly-herewith-consign-to-the-pit-the-ignorant-clowns-who-misconstrue-its/627871/108 "2012-07-12T18:01:24Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > No, that’s not true. It may be true soon as common use overtakes the current rules, but if you try to say that on an English test, you’ll flunk. Flunking the test is a relationship between your answer and the teacher, not your answer and the truth. What are our criteria for determining the correctness of the testmaker? The Oxford English Dictionary has instances of “reveal” as a noun dating back to 1596. It grew rare after the 17th century, but then came back (yes, via broadcasting) as early as 1952. It also has instances of “cite” as a noun dating back to 1957. That’s a hair older than the word “modem”. How long does it take for you to accept a term? The Oxford English Dictionary has instances of “service” as a verb (unrelated to automobiles or prostitution) in unbroken usage since 1893. That’s 120 years ago, a decade older than the word “radio”. How fucking long does it take for you to accept a term? ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-swiftly-herewith-consign-to-the-pit-the-ignorant-clowns-who-misconstrue-its/627871/109 "2012-07-12T18:02:57Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > If there were absolutely no prescriptivism, anyone could just make up any words and rules and definitions they wanted, even before a consensus developed. Descriptivism is not anarchy. It is classification. Prescriptivism says there’s an innate quality to prepositions that means they cannot be at the end of the sentence. Descriptivism and Lady Bracknell, say, that’s clearly untrue and points to hundreds of examples of preposition stranding. Now, you could say, oh, I don’t know, that stranding a preposition in an academic paper is wrong and descriptivists would look at academic papers and either say, yes, people avoid stranding prepositions in papers or no, they don’t. Language doesn’t need to be babied. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-swiftly-herewith-consign-to-the-pit-the-ignorant-clowns-who-misconstrue-its/627871/110 "2012-07-12T18:12:43Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > If there were absolutely no prescriptivism, anyone could just make up any words and rules and definitions they wanted, even before a consensus developed. Indeed, people can, and do, intentionally and unintentionally. Those terms then may or may not ever catch on and develop consensus usage. All this goes on regardless of whether ineffective prescriptivism barks snottily at the side. There’s never a ruling committee who bangs down the gavel and says “Ok, _now_ it’s a word”; at least, not one that has any effect on how people speak. ---
**Author:** ![perfectparanoia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a5b964/32.png) [@perfectparanoia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/perfectparanoia)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-swiftly-herewith-consign-to-the-pit-the-ignorant-clowns-who-misconstrue-its/627871/111 "2012-07-12T18:17:34Z")
I came in here for some minor word usage related venting but you guys are so far off track, I feel like I shouldn’t. Whatever. It still pisses me off so I will vent. My children bring home a reading log that we are to fill in and return to their teacher after they have read a certain number of times. In the text at the top it tells them to return it to ‘there’ teacher. This is handed out to every child in grades 1-6 so probably about 300 kids. Since these are the people who are supposed to be educating my children, I simply crossed it out on each sheet that came home and replaced it with the correct ‘their.’ I thought that would be a subtle enough hint and that it would be replaced with a correctly-spelled sheet. WRONG! After the sixth sheet, I phoned the school. Since it was a school-wide reading log, I talked to the secretary. After a fifteen minute lesson on the usage of their, there and they’re, she still didn’t believe that it was wrong. I asked to speak to the principal and was denied. Now I am on a mission. I MUST have this fixed. They will keep using it, year after year. Kids will LEARN the wrong usage of ‘there.’ As if it wasn’t bad enough already. So, I write a cryptic note to my daughter’s teacher asking her to call me. She does and I tell her about the mistake. She is sufficiently embarrassed. ‘Thank goodnesss,’ I think. Fast forward to the next week, the EXACT same sheet comes home except that the ‘there’ has been crossed out WITH MAGIC MARKER on the original and replaced by, wait for it… …thier. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-swiftly-herewith-consign-to-the-pit-the-ignorant-clowns-who-misconstrue-its/627871/112 "2012-07-12T18:23:18Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > It is what it is. That depends upon what the meaning of is is. > [@drewtwo99](#): > > So, yup. Its’ and it’s’ are perfectly “cromulent” words. And not the least woody. Please pass the clotted cream. > [@Indistinguishable](#): > > Do I need to whip out examples of how people use to spell? A poll might decide whether most readers of that post think that’s a mistake or a whoosh. > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > It’s like raising a child. How high? Pedantically speaking, it’s like _rearing_ a child. FWIW, I refuse to give my custom to Super Lube, which provides the ‘World’s “Best” Oil Change’. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-swiftly-herewith-consign-to-the-pit-the-ignorant-clowns-who-misconstrue-its/627871/113 "2012-07-12T18:32:42Z")
> [@Kenm](#): > > How high? Pedantically speaking, it’s like _rearing_ a child. Bollocks. There’s nothing wrong with the use of raise to mean rear. It’s a meaning listed in the OED for goodness sake. If you can’t count on the OED to be definitive, what on earth can you rely on? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-swiftly-herewith-consign-to-the-pit-the-ignorant-clowns-who-misconstrue-its/627871/114 "2012-07-12T18:48:02Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > Flunking the test is a relationship between your answer and the teacher, not your answer and the truth. But this means you believe there is no truth at all. We use words however we want, and we don’t need English teachers to teach us or give us tests. Anyone can use words any way they want at any time. > [@](#): > > What are our criteria for determining the correctness of the testmaker? You tell me. > [@](#): > > The Oxford English Dictionary has instances of “reveal” as a noun dating back to 1596. It grew rare after the 17th century, but then came back (yes, via broadcasting) as early as 1952. It also has instances of “cite” as a noun dating back to 1957. That’s a hair older than the word “modem”. How long does it take for you to accept a term? What does it say NOW? > [@](#): > > The Oxford English Dictionary has instances of “service” as a verb (unrelated to automobiles or prostitution) in unbroken usage since 1893. That’s 120 years ago, a decade older than the word “radio”. How fucking long does it take for you to accept a term? Take it up with your English teacher. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-swiftly-herewith-consign-to-the-pit-the-ignorant-clowns-who-misconstrue-its/627871/115 "2012-07-12T18:49:12Z")
> [@Kenm](#): > > How high? Pedantically speaking, it’s like _rearing_ a child. Damn, you got me. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-swiftly-herewith-consign-to-the-pit-the-ignorant-clowns-who-misconstrue-its/627871/116 "2012-07-12T18:50:18Z")
> [@perfectparanoia](#): > > I came in here for some minor word usage related venting but you guys are so far off track, I feel like I shouldn’t. > > Whatever. It still pisses me off so I will vent. > > My children bring home a reading log that we are to fill in and return to their teacher after they have read a certain number of times. In the text at the top it tells them to return it to ‘there’ teacher. This is handed out to every child in grades 1-6 so probably about 300 kids. > > Since these are the people who are supposed to be educating my children, I simply crossed it out on each sheet that came home and replaced it with the correct ‘their.’ I thought that would be a subtle enough hint and that it would be replaced with a correctly-spelled sheet. WRONG! > > After the sixth sheet, I phoned the school. Since it was a school-wide reading log, I talked to the secretary. After a fifteen minute lesson on the usage of their, there and they’re, she still didn’t believe that it was wrong. I asked to speak to the principal and was denied. > > Now I am on a mission. I MUST have this fixed. They will keep using it, year after year. Kids will LEARN the wrong usage of ‘there.’ As if it wasn’t bad enough already. > > So, I write a cryptic note to my daughter’s teacher asking her to call me. She does and I tell her about the mistake. She is sufficiently embarrassed. ‘Thank goodnesss,’ I think. > > Fast forward to the next week, the EXACT same sheet comes home except that the ‘there’ has been crossed out WITH MAGIC MARKER on the original and replaced by, wait for it… > > …thier. Nice. Move to a new school district immediately! ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-swiftly-herewith-consign-to-the-pit-the-ignorant-clowns-who-misconstrue-its/627871/117 "2012-07-12T18:54:01Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > Indeed, people can, and do, intentionally and unintentionally. Those terms then may or may not ever catch on and develop consensus usage. All this goes on regardless of whether ineffective prescriptivism barks snottily at the side. There’s never a ruling committee who bangs down the gavel and says “Ok, _now_ it’s a word”; at least, not one that has any effect on how people speak. So can we use any word any way we want at any time? Can we make up our own grammar too? Anything goes? Is that how you write, or teach your children? If you really believe that prescriptivism is worthless snotty barking, then you can never ever complain about any use of a word or grammar or correct anyone, because you’d be doing the same thing. Even when you use description, since, after all, the language is constantly changing, and anyone has the right to be the first to change it. The very act of describing common usage is prescriptive too, since it relies on consensus. You can’t have a language that has no rules, otherwise it won’t work. Description tells us how the rules are made, and change, but they still exist. I don’t deny that language changes, or that it should. Like I said, many of today’s correct English is simply yesterday’s errors. That’s why I said there’s a balance. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-swiftly-herewith-consign-to-the-pit-the-ignorant-clowns-who-misconstrue-its/627871/118 "2012-07-12T18:55:25Z")
Your argument is bad and you should feel bad. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-swiftly-herewith-consign-to-the-pit-the-ignorant-clowns-who-misconstrue-its/627871/119 "2012-07-12T18:56:43Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > But this means you believe there is no truth at all. We use words however we want, and we don’t need English teachers to teach us or give us tests. Anyone can use words any way they want at any time. No, you are being presumptuous. I do recognize correctness conditions: correctness as determined by patterns of usage. Because I recognize correctness conditions, I can imagine a teacher making an error in their grading of a grammar test, just as they might in their grading of a physics or chemistry or history test. > [@](#): > > You tell me. See above. > [@](#): > > What does it say NOW? Er, exactly what I was implying it does: [QUOTE=OED: reveal, n.:] _Broadcasting_ and _Advertising_. A final revelation of something previously kept from an audience, a participant in a programme, etc. Freq. with _the_. [/quote] [QUOTE=OED: cite, n.:] _U.S._. = CITATION n. 3, 4. [/quote] That is, “cite” is short for “citation” in the following senses, as most on SDMB well know: [QUOTE=OED: citation, n.:] **3.** The action of citing or quoting any words or written passage, quotation; in _Law_, a reference to decided cases or books of authority. **4.** _concr._ A passage cited, a quotation. [/quote] > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Take it up with your English teacher. Why? My English teachers never complained about “service” as a verb; _you_ did! ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2012, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-swiftly-herewith-consign-to-the-pit-the-ignorant-clowns-who-misconstrue-its/627871/120 "2012-07-12T18:57:28Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Your argument is bad and you should feel bad. Don’t worry, in a few years all the dictionaries will say “badly” is just another adjective. Common use after all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-swiftly-herewith-consign-to-the-pit-the-ignorant-clowns-who-misconstrue-its/627871.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-swiftly-herewith-consign-to-the-pit-the-ignorant-clowns-who-misconstrue-its/627871.md?page=7)