# I think Batman should be our national symbol. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 3, 2017, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-batman-should-be-our-national-symbol/795406 "2017-09-03T15:49:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2017, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-batman-should-be-our-national-symbol/795406/21 "2017-09-03T19:49:59Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Yeah, I disagree that this is a necessary condition of superhero stories. You could easily set up a superhero setting in which realistic rule of law and morality is in force, even though physics is fantasy-based. It would definitely limit the kinds of things that could happen in a superhero story, but that’s just how fiction works—you can choose any point on the scale of fantasy-to-verisimilitude—and you can make specific exceptions. I didn’t say it was a _necessary_ condition, I said it was an _extant_ condition. Sure, you could create a superhero setting that followed real-life physical and social laws more closely. But neither DC nor Marvel have done that. Based on what happens in the comics, the laws of physics Batman’s world are clearly different from the laws of physics in the real world. Likewise, based on what happens in the comics, the criminal justice code in Batman’s USA are clearly different from the criminal justice code in the real USA. Clearly, in Batman’s America, the legal code makes allowances from costumed vigilantism. Batman isn’t a criminal, because in the stories in which he appears, his actions are usually not considered criminal by the relevant authorities. Now, in the real world, you probably couldn’t have a legal system anything like what’s depicted in a Batman comic. Society would fall apart. But within the fiction of the comic, that system works. Similarly, you probably couldn’t have a system of physics that ignored the law of conservation of matter. The universe would fall apart. But, again, within the fiction of the comic, the system works. > [@](#): > > 1. If that was the only kind of thing Superman was ever depicted doing, or if Superman was generally known in the minds of the public as adhering to the rule of law, then that would be a different issue than what we are talking about with regard to Batman. > > 2. This example is kind of backwards. It’s not the public or the government holding up Superman as an example of civic virtue to be revered and followed. It’s a specific fictional story that is written to demonstrate a particular civic virtue, and then the creators being praised for doing that. To the extent that it affected public opinion of the Ku Klux Klan, it’s an example of a fictional story being used for (virtuous) propaganda, not an example of official reverence of a lawless fictional hero. That’s my point. Batman _isn’t_ a lawless fictional hero. He’s a fictional hero that follows the laws of his society pretty closely - but those laws just happen to have some major functional differences from the laws we have in real life. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2017, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-batman-should-be-our-national-symbol/795406/22 "2017-09-03T20:06:19Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Likewise, based on what happens in the comics, the criminal justice code in Batman’s USA are clearly different from the criminal justice code in the real USA. Clearly, in Batman’s America, the legal code makes allowances from costumed vigilantism. Batman isn’t a criminal, because in the stories in which he appears, his actions are usually not considered criminal by the relevant authorities. The discussion is about using Batman as a symbol of our _real_ country. With that context, our _real_ system of law, justice, and morality has to be applied. In that context, he is a criminal, and someone who doesn’t respect people’s civil and human rights. > [@](#): > > That’s my point. Batman _isn’t_ a lawless fictional hero. He’s a fictional hero that follows the laws of his society pretty closely - but those laws just happen to have some major functional differences from the laws we have in real life. This is just quibbling. But even as a reader of this fictionally constructed world, in which such behavior is legal, I can still judge it—as a reader—to be immoral behavior. What if I created a fictional world in which subjugation or genocide of people based on skin color, religion, sexual orientation, etc., was legal and admired? I couldn’t hold up a character in that world as a symbol of our country in real life without implying that those things are things our country stands for. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2017, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-batman-should-be-our-national-symbol/795406/23 "2017-09-03T20:58:59Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > What version of Batman doesn’t do that? > > I suppose the 1960s TV version was supposed to be deputized by the Gotham police. Is that what you mean? Maybe that means he was technically not a vigilante, but he still was very iffy on constitutional rights. The Adam West Batman? He was very much about the idea that criminals could be rehabilitated and he used his Wayne Foundation to help numerous ex-cons reenter society. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2017, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-batman-should-be-our-national-symbol/795406/24 "2017-09-03T21:09:45Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > The discussion is about using Batman as a symbol of our _real_ country. With that context, our _real_ system of law, justice, and morality has to be applied. In that context, he is a criminal, and someone who doesn’t respect people’s civil and human rights. I’m not really addressing the concept of “Batman as national symbol,” because that’s pretty clearly a joke concept, and not something that needs to be seriously considered. I’m addressing the concept that Batman, as a fictional character, is breaking the law. Generally speaking, that’s not how the character is portrayed in the vast majority of his appearances across multiple media. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2017, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-batman-should-be-our-national-symbol/795406/25 "2017-09-03T21:10:31Z")
> [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > I can’t tell whether that’s a regular bat looking to its right, or a bat with a hat looking to its left. It’s a regular bat, spread out to display its dorsal side. It’s been killed by having its neck broken, so its head is tilted a but to the left. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2017, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-batman-should-be-our-national-symbol/795406/26 "2017-09-03T21:21:25Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I never really got that phrase. If the road to hell is paved with good intentions, then what the heck is the road to _heaven_ paved with? _Bad_ intentions? Or do good intentions also pave the road to heaven, the way bad intentions presumably also pave the road to hell? And is there a mediocre road to some kind of neutral limbo, and is it paved with good intentions and/or bad intentions and/or mere indifference? Or can some kind of mere indifference lead me down a neutral-intentions path to hell, if I’m not out to harm others but I also don’t really give a crap about helping them? Think of the good intentions as a road bed as filled with gravel, which promotes good drainage, so it’s good that it’s there. But if you stop your road construction there, it’s not a very effective pavement. Now think of actions which _fulfill_ the good intentions as a layer of surface material. That’s the road to Heaven. The actual streets _in_ Heaven, of course are paved with Gold. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2017, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-batman-should-be-our-national-symbol/795406/27 "2017-09-03T21:50:45Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’m not really addressing the concept of “Batman as national symbol,” because that’s pretty clearly a joke concept, and not something that needs to be seriously considered. I’m addressing the concept that Batman, as a fictional character, is breaking the law. Generally speaking, that’s not how the character is portrayed in the vast majority of his appearances across multiple media. I don’t know how to measure the weight of how often Batman is depicted as acting within the legal constraints of his world and how often he’s depicted as violating them and how often it’s unclear whether he is or he isn’t, but that’s really minutiae. If we’re having a discussion regarding the morals and ethics of Batman, our real life values are relevant. And from that perspective I feel justified in considering him a lawless vigilante and someone I wouldn’t want real people to treat as a model for behavior. ---
**Author:** ![burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/burpo_the_wonder_mutt/32/365_2.png) [@burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burpo_the_wonder_mutt)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2017, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-batman-should-be-our-national-symbol/795406/28 "2017-09-03T21:58:38Z")
Well, Ben Franklin wanted it to be the turkey, so why not a turkey with a mortarboard? Ring any bells? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2017, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-batman-should-be-our-national-symbol/795406/29 "2017-09-03T23:02:28Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I didn’t say it was a _necessary_ condition, I said it was an _extant_ condition. Sure, you could create a superhero setting that followed real-life physical and social laws more closely. But neither DC nor Marvel have done that. . . . Marvel’s Daredevil just had a lovely story where Matt Murdock took a case to the U.S. Supreme Court, seeking a ruling to permit “masked heroes” to testify in court in their “alter ego” identity. Now, the story wasn’t really very realistic…but it took a more thoughtful examination of the issue than we’ve seen before. I admired the writing for evoking a full discussion of the matter, even if it couldn’t actually present a full discussion. Another good example of a story that treats a “superhero” more realistically than most is Paul Chadwick’s “Concrete.” In this setting, Concrete is the world’s _only_ super-powered individual, and so his relationship with the government and with the law is more open to close clinical examination than it is in the Marvel or DC universes, where you can’t shake a tree without a superhero or villain falling out. Chadwick’s story has been remarkably thoughtful, and occasionally has been quite close to believable. ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2017, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-batman-should-be-our-national-symbol/795406/30 "2017-09-04T01:37:48Z")
in the fox animated series wasn’t bruce wayne on the parole board ? I remember he let ivy out once and she told him as batman that wayne was the only one that believed in her … [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-batman-should-be-our-national-symbol/795406.md?page=1)