# I think commas should be outside quotation marks. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 22, 2002, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-commas-should-be-outside-quotation-marks/133436 "2002-10-22T23:11:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2002, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-commas-should-be-outside-quotation-marks/133436/1 "2002-10-22T23:11:20Z")
\*Since the sign read “Open,” and I had some time to kill, I decided to go inside. \* Ok so that’s a terrible terrible sentence but am I the only one who thinks it looks totally awkward to have the comma inside the quotation marks? ---
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2002, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-commas-should-be-outside-quotation-marks/133436/2 "2002-10-23T00:03:00Z")
I think so too. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2002, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-commas-should-be-outside-quotation-marks/133436/3 "2002-10-23T00:10:48Z")
Is everyone saying they shouldn’t then? (Unless of course the sign actually had a comma on it) ---
**Author:** ![TV\_time](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f17d59/32.png) [@TV\_time](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TV_time)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2002, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-commas-should-be-outside-quotation-marks/133436/4 "2002-10-23T00:29:37Z")
While in the U.S. the comma is usually put inside the quotation marks, it is not necessarily the case. It is not incorrect to put it the other way, because as **Mangetout** mentioned, the comma is probably not in the sign, it is just acceptable the less correct way and thus easier. In the other English speaking countries around the world, it is in fact encouraged to use the comma in the correct fashion (inside, if it is indeed being quoted and outside if it is not - the same, I should mention, is done with other puncuation marks like period, colon, etc.). I just reread my post and it seems a bit vague. It’s been a long day. I hope it is not as vague to others. TV ---
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2002, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-commas-should-be-outside-quotation-marks/133436/5 "2002-10-23T00:35:35Z")
No, that’s fine, **TV time** , but do you have a cite? I’ve always heard it the other way. Believe me, I would welcome the change. ---
**Author:** ![ResIpsaLoquitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b3f665/32.png) [@ResIpsaLoquitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ResIpsaLoquitor)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2002, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-commas-should-be-outside-quotation-marks/133436/6 "2002-10-23T01:05:32Z")
From _The Chicago Manual of Style_, part 5.86: > [@](#): > > When the context calls for a comma at the end of material enclosed in quotation marks…the comma should be placed inside the quotation marks. > > (Example) > See Brighton’s comments on “political expedience,” which may be found elsewhere in this volume. But, see 5.87: > [@](#): > > In close textual studies and on similar rare occasions when the inclusion of a comma inside the closing quotation mark may cause confusion, the comma may be placed outside the quotation mark (see also 5.12-13): > > (Example) > Following the phrase “slightly disrobing”, an odd typographical error occurs. ---
**Author:** ![NardoPolo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecae2f/32.png) [@NardoPolo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NardoPolo)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2002, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-commas-should-be-outside-quotation-marks/133436/7 "2002-10-23T02:11:01Z")
I agree whole-heartedly, KidCharlemagne. The rules in this case are silly and illogical. Since computer programming has forced a large portion of people to be very literal in where they put their quotes and punctuation, I think (hope) we’re now on the verge of changing the rule for the better. Besides, how would you say: > [@](#): > > He ended his question with a “?”. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2002, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-commas-should-be-outside-quotation-marks/133436/8 "2002-10-23T04:22:47Z")
According to the _Harbrace College Handbook_, the comma and ther period are always placed inside the quotation marks. The tradition comes from an American printers’convention and applies only to American standards. There is one exception noted: The period follows the parenthetical reference to the source of the quotation. For example: The author says, “Beware of Greeks bearing gift horses in the mouth” (p.22). Meanwhile, the language is constantly changing. Do with it what you will except in English 101. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2002, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-commas-should-be-outside-quotation-marks/133436/9 "2002-10-23T04:37:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NardoPolo \* > \*\*Besides, how would you say this? > > \*\* I would say, “He ended his question with a question mark.” ---
**Author:** ![typhoon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ed8c4c/32.png) [@typhoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/typhoon)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2002, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-commas-should-be-outside-quotation-marks/133436/10 "2002-10-23T05:21:04Z")
The comma is inside the quotation mark because it’s smoother and less abrupt that way. Punctuation isn’t supposed to be like the syntax of a programming language; it isn’t there to diagram the sentence, it’s there to help the reader. This doesn’t seem to be much of an issue, though. After five hundred years of typesetting, you can pick up just about any book and it’ll have the commas within the quotes. Think of it as natural selection. ---
**Author:** ![everton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@everton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/everton)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2002, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-commas-should-be-outside-quotation-marks/133436/11 "2002-10-23T10:30:20Z")
Not wanting to preach to Americans about American usage, but have to disagree with you there **typhoon**. As has already been said, British usage is to leave commas etc. outside of quotation marks and we don’t find it to be less smooth or less abrupt than your practice. And “just about any book” ignores the many thousands of books available to me and millions like me. ---
**Author:** ![everton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@everton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/everton)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2002, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-commas-should-be-outside-quotation-marks/133436/12 "2002-10-23T10:32:09Z")
“…or less abrupt” should have read “…or more abrupt” of course. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2002, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-commas-should-be-outside-quotation-marks/133436/13 "2002-10-23T12:22:04Z")
What goes inside the quotation marks should be what is being quoted. I, too, think it’s silly as hell to include part of the sentence’s punctuation as well. She said “Let’s go into town,” and I got up and left with her. = She said > [@](#): > > Let’s go into town, …no she didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2002, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-commas-should-be-outside-quotation-marks/133436/14 "2002-10-23T12:38:01Z")
I totally disagree with **Typhoon**. The comma inside the quotes makes me think that the quoted material was about to go on saying something, and then suddenly I see an end-quote-mark. I think to myself “what came after the comma-- _what came after the comma?_” ---
**Author:** ![gex\_gex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/94ad74/32.png) [@gex\_gex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gex_gex)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2002, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-commas-should-be-outside-quotation-marks/133436/15 "2002-10-23T13:48:57Z")
Just checked my Australian newspaper. Commas in quotes there. Looks like there are other countries besides the US that do the commas inside quotes thing. I like it that way. Sure, it doesn’t make sense, but it looks a lot neater. I guess I just don’t think of language as little computer-programesque blocks of meaning. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2002, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-commas-should-be-outside-quotation-marks/133436/16 "2002-10-23T14:09:20Z")
This all sounds very odd to me; I’m wondering if we might be talking about when a comma exists or is implied or required _within the quoted dialogue_, not just in the sentence in which the quote is embedded for example: ‘My dear fellow\*\*,\*\*’ said Sherlock Holmes, as we sat on either side of the fire in his lodgings at Baker Street, ‘life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of men could invent…’ As opposed to: ‘My dear fellow’ **,** said Sherlock Holmes, as we sat on either side of the fire in his lodgings at Baker Street, ‘life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of men could invent…’ or ‘My dear fellow’ said Sherlock Holmes, as we sat on either side of the fire in his lodgings at Baker Street, ‘ **,** life is infinitely stranger than anything which the mind of men could invent…’ ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@The\_Ace\_of\_Swords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ace_of_Swords)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2002, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-commas-should-be-outside-quotation-marks/133436/17 "2002-10-23T14:18:07Z")
It’s very simple. If the comma confuses the issue, put it outside the quotes – that’s where common usage comes from – common friggin’ sense… “Could you get me some eggs, milk,” said Sheila. Does the comma separate Sheila’s items or the sentence clause? “Could you get me some eggs, milk?”, said Sheila. Better. I’m no expert, but what I do is keep the point of the puntucation in mind; if you can make the meaning clearer by changing the punctuation, do it! ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2002, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-commas-should-be-outside-quotation-marks/133436/18 "2002-10-23T14:25:26Z")
Yes; that makes sense to me (that doesn’t mean I’m right, so: Comma is part of sentence structure in which quote is embedded: The man said “Hand over your wallet” **,** so I did. Comma is part of the quoted speech: “Hand over your wallet\*\*,\*\*” said the man, “or I will tear you into small pieces, starting with your toes.” Makes sense to me, but IANAExpert. ---
**Author:** ![panache](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c77e96/32.png) [@panache](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2002, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-commas-should-be-outside-quotation-marks/133436/19 "2002-10-23T15:01:16Z")
May I just mention that as passionate as I am about the grammar at issue here, I’m getting hysterical at all the example quotes in this thread!!! ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2002, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-commas-should-be-outside-quotation-marks/133436/20 "2002-10-23T15:40:18Z")
I agree with **Mangetout** regarding commas being inside quotes if part of the quoted speech. In the OP I was referring to commas that were punctuating the sentence, not the quote. I don’t think there should be anything inside a quote that isn’t in the original (except [sic], …, etc.) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-commas-should-be-outside-quotation-marks/133436.md?page=2)