# I think commas should be outside quotation marks. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 22, 2002, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-commas-should-be-outside-quotation-marks/133436 "2002-10-22T23:11:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2002, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-commas-should-be-outside-quotation-marks/133436/21 "2002-10-23T15:43:42Z")
“[A]s passionate as I am about the grammar at issue here,” said panache, “I’m getting hysterical at all the example quotes in this thread!!!” ---
**Author:** ![missbunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/76d3ee/32.png) [@missbunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/missbunny)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2002, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-commas-should-be-outside-quotation-marks/133436/22 "2002-10-23T18:00:16Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Ace0Spades \* > \*\* > “Could you get me some eggs, milk?”, said Sheila._\* There’s not supposed to be a comma in the above example. The question mark supersedes it and makes it unnecessary. No, a question mark doesn’t ALWAYS make a comma unnecessary; just in this example. Similar rules apply to exclamation points that are part of quoted material and to questions that quote a question: you don’t put two question marks, e.g., "Did you say, “I am sick?”? = wrong “Did you say, I am sick?” = right ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2002, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-commas-should-be-outside-quotation-marks/133436/23 "2002-10-23T19:26:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by missbunny \* > \*\* > > "Did you say, “I am sick?”? = wrong > > “Did you say, I am sick?” = right \*\* Did you mean the latter to say: Did you say, “I am sick?” But according to this site (rule 2) [http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/quotes.html](http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/quotes.html) It should probably read Did you say, “I am sick”? ---
**Author:** ![missbunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/76d3ee/32.png) [@missbunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/missbunny)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2002, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-commas-should-be-outside-quotation-marks/133436/24 "2002-10-23T20:20:24Z")
AARGH!! I meant to write: Did you say, “Am I sick?” = right Because the statement “I am sick” is not a question. This agrees with what Rule 2 in your link says. Never fails, there’s always a mistake in a grammar post. ---
**Author:** ![missbunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/76d3ee/32.png) [@missbunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/missbunny)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2002, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-commas-should-be-outside-quotation-marks/133436/25 "2002-10-23T20:22:59Z")
Now someone’s going to say that “I am sick” _can_ be a question. Okay, so it can under the right circumstances but it wasn’t meant to be in my example. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2002, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-commas-should-be-outside-quotation-marks/133436/26 "2002-10-23T20:25:28Z")
The convention is to put the comma inside the quotes. Arguing that it’s illogical or wrong is just plain anal retentiveness. Language is never entirely logical, and it would be much worse if it was. ---
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2002, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-commas-should-be-outside-quotation-marks/133436/27 "2002-10-23T23:28:25Z")
True, but punctuation usually is pretty logical. ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2002, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-commas-should-be-outside-quotation-marks/133436/28 "2002-10-23T23:48:44Z")
Concerning the logical quoting style (which I heartily endorse and use in my writing), the Jargon Dictionary has this to say: > [@](#): > > Interestingly, a similar style is now preferred practice in Great Britain, though the older style (which became established for typographical reasons having to do with the aesthetics > of comma and quotes in typeset text) is still accepted there. “Hart’s Rules” and the “Oxford Dictionary for Writers and Editors” call the hacker-like style `new' or `logical’ quoting. > This returns British English to the style Latin languages (including Spanish, French, Italian, Catalan) have been using all along. I don’t have either of the referenced books to verify this, but I’m inclined to believe them. ---
**Author:** ![NardoPolo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecae2f/32.png) [@NardoPolo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NardoPolo)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2002, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-commas-should-be-outside-quotation-marks/133436/29 "2002-10-24T10:58:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RealityChuck \* > **The convention is to put the comma inside the quotes. Arguing that it’s illogical or wrong is just plain anal retentiveness.** So is correcting it when someone uses puts the punctuation outside the quotes. The point here is that unlike many other language issues (they’re/their/there, writing in only lowercase letters, etc.) this “error” has a legitimate reason to be preferred over the accepted writing. It’s not a result of laziness or ignorance - it’s a deliberate decision. I’ve been using the strict quoting convention a long time, now. People correct me, and I point out why I do it. Think globally, act locally :). [hijack] Should the 🙂 go inside or outside the punctuation? [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2002, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-commas-should-be-outside-quotation-marks/133436/30 "2002-10-24T13:38:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by missbunny \* > \*\*AARGH!! I meant to write: > > Did you say, “Am I sick?” = right > > Because the statement “I am sick” is not a question. This agrees with what Rule 2 in your link says. > > Never fails, there’s always a mistake in a grammar post. \*\* Actually check out rule 2 again, the second example which reads: _Do you agree with the saying, “All’s fair in love and war”?_ ---
**Author:** ![missbunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/76d3ee/32.png) [@missbunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/missbunny)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2002, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-commas-should-be-outside-quotation-marks/133436/31 "2002-10-24T14:06:35Z")
KidC, I am not sure what you mean. “All’s fair in love and war” is not a question. If it were a question - “Is all fair in love and war?” - then the question mark that is part of the quote would be inside the quotation marks and would be the only question mark used: Did you say, “Is all fair in love and war?” [“Is all fair in love and war?” is a question in itself - thus, the question mark stays inside the quotation marks.] vs. Do you agree that “All’s fair in love and war”? [“All’s fair in love and war” is not a question in itself - thus, the question mark goes outside the quotation marks.] These do follow the examples given in your link. Or am I not understanding your what you mean? ---
**Author:** ![gex\_gex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/94ad74/32.png) [@gex\_gex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gex_gex)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2002, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-commas-should-be-outside-quotation-marks/133436/32 "2002-10-24T15:24:22Z")
> [@](#): > > _originally posted by NardoPolo_ > The point here is that unlike many other language issues (they’re/their/there, writing in only lowercase letters, etc.) this “error” has a legitimate reason to be preferred over the accepted writing. It’s not a result of laziness or ignorance - it’s a deliberate decision. when i write in lowercase i do have a legitimate reason for it: it looks more aesthetically pleasing. however, this practice, by tradition, is not correct, just as it is not correct to place the comma outside the quotation marks. ---
**Author:** ![NardoPolo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecae2f/32.png) [@NardoPolo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NardoPolo)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-commas-should-be-outside-quotation-marks/133436/33 "2002-10-25T10:32:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gex gex \* > **when i write in lowercase i do have a legitimate reason for it** I figured someone would respond this way eventually. :rolleyes: You must do what you feel is right, of course. Good luck. ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-commas-should-be-outside-quotation-marks/133436/34 "2002-10-25T13:00:02Z")
**Missbunny** I was referring to this: _Did you say, “I am sick?” = right_ Which should be: Did you say, “I am sick”? But then I see you changed it to “Am I sick?” which is right. ---
**Author:** ![gex\_gex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/94ad74/32.png) [@gex\_gex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gex_gex)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-commas-should-be-outside-quotation-marks/133436/35 "2002-10-25T16:42:51Z")
NardoPolo: My reason for writing in lower case is just as good as yours for mis-use of punctuation. So, while you’re busy rolling your eyes at how I could possibly misuse language in a way you do not agree with, where misplaced commas are concerned, I’ll repeat your words back to you. You must do what you feel is right, of course. Good luck. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2002, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-commas-should-be-outside-quotation-marks/133436/36 "2002-10-26T02:07:29Z")
If punctuation within the quotes should be there only if the phrase or sentence on its own needs it, and if you punctuate outside the quotes without regard to the punctuation that may or may not end the quotation (since that punctuation “belongs” only to the quotation), wouldn’t you write sentences such as the following thusly? ``` "I like red wine.", said Bill. Janet replied, "Doesn't everyone?". ``` Nope, I don’t like it. ---
**Author:** ![everton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@everton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/everton)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2002, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-commas-should-be-outside-quotation-marks/133436/37 "2002-10-26T02:59:20Z")
I don’t know what the American convention is, but we don’t double up the punctuation marks like that in Britain, **Bob**. Our version would look like this: “I like red wine”, said Bill. Janet replied, “Doesn’t everyone?” ---
**Author:** ![Another\_Primate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Another\_Primate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Another_Primate)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2002, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-commas-should-be-outside-quotation-marks/133436/38 "2002-10-26T03:37:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RealityChuck \* > \*\*The convention is to put the comma inside the quotes. Arguing that it’s illogical or wrong is just plain anal retentiveness. Language is never entirely logical, and it would be much worse if it was. \*\* If the convention is illogical, we should stop using it. I agree that language will never be set in stone by rules. But in the case of punctuating quotes, I think ‘common sense’ should rule. Example: Would you please explain your statement that “one minus one equals two”? is more natural than Would you please explain your statement that “one minus one equals two?” ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2002, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-commas-should-be-outside-quotation-marks/133436/39 "2002-10-26T11:59:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by everton \* > \*\* > “I like red wine”, said Bill. > \*\* Isn’t this one supposed to be “I like red wine,” said Bill? Which of course makes no sense to me either, hence the OP. ---
**Author:** ![everton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@everton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/everton)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2002, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-commas-should-be-outside-quotation-marks/133436/40 "2002-10-26T12:19:35Z")
Not where I live. The way we do it, the comma would only appear inside the quotation marks if it was part of the speech. “I like red wine”, said Bill. “I like red wine too,” said Janet, “but I hate white”. (the first sentence doesn’t need a comma at all IMHO, but it illustrates what we’re discussing) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-commas-should-be-outside-quotation-marks/133436.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-commas-should-be-outside-quotation-marks/133436.md?page=3)