No, because I did it fast.
I think it’s ophidiophobia. But I’m not about to look it up. For fear of pictures.
See, this is why I’d love to live in Ireland.
I suppose I am one of those nine…
However I have NOT once claimed that I had Asperger’s or anything else…
I only said that a lot of what’s described could fit me… whether thats Asperger’s or just the way my own mind ticks is another subject. I rather doubt I am autistic in any way… just normal fucked up middle class. Besides I LIKE being different.
Rubystreak - what Primaflora said - exactly.
I quote from Wing’s translation of Hans Aspergers original essay, describing one of the children he was studying -
“His most blatant failure was in writing. Like almost all autistic individuals, this motorically clumsy boy had atrocious handwriting. The pen did not obey him, it stuck and it stuttered; he corrected without concern for appearance and would simply write new letters on top of the old ones; he crossed out and his letters varied in size.”
Asperger consistently mentioned his subject’s problems with handwriting, as does almost every other researcher.
I would also suggest you use the DSM IV with caution Rubystreak, it is designed to be used by clinicians in the diagnosis of mental disorders, not teachers trying to justify their lack of knowledge. However as you apparently did consult it, you would have noted that it is mentioned that motor clumsiness and awkwardness may also be a feature of AS. (page 81, DSM IV-TR). The advice you were given about your students problems with eye contact and attention in the other thread is also supported not only by the DSM IV but by most of the research on AS
Speaking of phobias, I always love [read: hate] when people have something like a bio textbook open to a picture of a rearing spider (you know, its front two legs raised in a threatening gesture), and sit there saying “Eww… I hate having arachniphobia!”
I don’t claim to be phobic of needles, because I can see how my fear would get worse (I don’t think getting one anywhere other than the arm would bug me), but I’m bothered enough that I feel true sympathy with something far worse than I’ve experienced.
It is not unusual to read about an illness and erroneously diagnose yourself with it. It is an occupational hazard with med students.
I was convinced I was schizophrenic in Freshman Psych… especially after meeting and talking with one of the professor’s paranoid-schizophrenic patients.
I read the symptoms some people posted “I’m a visual thinker” (WTF?) and think that they are pathologizing normal behavior.
I didn’t speak until the age of three or so and never in baby talk. I was smarter than most other kids, had trouble in team activities (because I was three steps ahead of others most of the time). I read early (between 9 months and a year old) and withdrew from other kids because we had nothing in common.
I’m a visual thinker and have trouble remembering things I haven’t seen, but THIS IS NOT ABNORMAL! (my god people, people ar different!!)
I agree with you, Whistlepig that though I have considered the possibility of myself being afflicted with mild Autism or HFA or Asperger’s, especially after reading of a study (sorry, no cite) in which they studied Autistic patterns of eye movements when watching a conversation (in a movie). “Normal” non-austic people watch eye movements. Austistic people watch mouth movements. (super-generalizing here) I have always watched people’s mouths, even today, because I can’t hear what the person is saying or comprehend it if I’m not watching their mouth move.
However, I would never claim to have a disease or a disorder for which I had not been specifically diagnosed. If I was curious about the symptoms, I would certainly ask and investigate, but I’m not going to tell people “I think I have chronic fatique syndrome” because I’m tired today.
Don’t blame your percieved personality traits on a disease you don’t have.
You know, one of the first things they taught us in Psych 101 is that people are prone to self-diagnosis. I remember my professor saying, “NO ONE is exactly, precisely ‘normal’ and everyone has habits, glitches and reactions that fall somewhere along the scales of ‘disorder’.” It’s very common.
Recently, another poster listed some behaviors of a family member that he found to be irritating, and I recognized some of those behaviors as being on the ADD scale and said so. That poster said that there was no way it could be ADD, and chastised me for making an amateur diagnosis. He had a point, but I really wasn’t trying to make a diagnosis, just pointing out that ADD was one thing I would consider. (I didn’t make that point very well, so deserved the chastisement, but the poster had the thread locked before I could explain further and apologize - but I digress, as I usually do.)
ANYHOW. I have a cousin who is autistic, and he is the only person I have ever known who is autistic. Apparently, his autism is considered severe - he is institutionalized - but I didn’t know there were varying degrees of autism. I also have a friend whose son has Asperger’s syndrome, a condition I didn’t even know existed until she told me. I never heard of HFA, or knew the symptoms of Asperger’s until recently. I was diagnosed with ADD when I was 30, and have spent the last 9 years in therapy and on meds for it, and it has made a HUGE difference. Nowhere in my therapy have the terms Asperger’s or autism been mentioned - but there are a few “symptoms” I have that I now know, from reading that thread, fall on the scales for those conditions - that DO NOT come up on the ADD scale. With that knowledge, I intend to ask my therapist if Asperger’s or autism is something that has been explored in my diagnosis.
I think that the people who have been posting in that thread are probably thinking along the same lines as I am: I never considered this, but I’d like to know more, so I will share my experiences and see if anything sends up red flags for people who DO know. If they do, I will pursue it. I do not think anyone is really self-diagnosing, or trying in some way to blame their glitches on a disease - I think they’re just examining possibilities, you know?
I never said that you or auliya didn’t know what you were talking about, did I? But get defensive if you wish–no matter how much you swear at me or try to make me feel bad, your advice about how to handle this student was simply not sound.
Your suggestions would, according to the professionals and the parent, reinforce a learned helplessness this kid is cultivating. You gave me bad advice, which also made me feel bad (I am not blaming you for this, but it was kind of inevitable under the circumstances) and inadequate as a teacher. I was heartened to learn that I was doing the right thing by not coddling him.
I took NOTHING as a personal attack; look not to the mote in my eye. I didn’t swear at you, or accuse you of anything but misguided attempts at help. There is NO evidence in any of my posts that I took any of this personally. You, however, clearly have, and have gone right into the ad hominem attacks.
I would remind you that the person who wrote the IEP is a psychologist, who probably knows more about how to deal with Asperger’s in the classroom AND the abilities of this particular child than you, auliya, or I do. The accomodations you mentioned are most definitely NOT part of that IEP and I would imagine aren’t as “stock” or “common” as you claim.
It’s not a “fucking bullshit interpretation of the DSM” as you so eloquently put it. It’s backed up by every single other person involved with this kid. OF COURSE scaffolding is in place to see if he can do the work; no one wants him to fail for lack of necessary help. We just don’t want to help too much, and as I said before, he has definitely shown improvement since he’s seen that we mean business.
Degrance suggested I give the student my notes; check the thread again. He will get assistive technology if it is deemed that he truly needs it. No one wants to fuck this kid over, contrary to what you might allege. In fact, I think enabling him to be helpless would be fucking him over.
If you consider an IEP and the mother’s words as “scraps of knowledge,” plus my and other teachers’ observations of his improved effort when we didn’t baby him, then obviously nothing I say is going to convince you, now that you’ve decided that I’m a shitty teacher who doesn’t care about the kid. Whatever.
You’re entitled to your opinion, but I’m going to trust the professionals and the people who know the kid.
Problems with handwriting, which are common not only in people with Asperger’s but a lot of kids at this age (12), can be overcome. He is going to have to hand-write all his state exams, so I would be doing him a grave disservice if I let him opt out of it and did it for him. Do you understand that? Telling me to just give him my notes is counterproductive. He may get to use an ePad but he’s still going to need to write.
Oh, if you want to be insulting, fine, this is the Pit, but I was not using the DSM to justify my lack of knowledge. I was using it as an easily accessed cite to back up the IEP (which I cannot cite for legal reasons), special ed teacher, and mom, who all say his language skills are up to par. I don’t see how you have more understanding of his situation than the professionals and family members who say he can do the work.
I didn’t argue with the stuff about eye contact. However, I do expect the kid to face me when he’s talking to me, and I was backed up on that expectation by the kid’s mother. She wants him to be told how to behave in a way that will make his life easier, not allowed to behave in a way that exacerbates his difficulties.
I can understand the reflexive defensiveness here, but you can argue all you want and it doesn’t change the fact that you are not professionals and your advice wasn’t sound. I don’t blame you for that. I blame myself for asking, though my reasons were that I didn’t have the IEP in hand yet (it can take awhile to get those) and I wanted to help the kid ADAP. I appreciate the intetions behind the advice but not the fallacious content.
Rubystreak, I can certainly understand your frustration with how little information is available for teachers. My son’s in his first year of middle school and none of his teachers, including the (special ed) Teacher Consultant have ever taught a student with Asperger’s.
His IEP now includes speech therapy, to help him not perseverate not because he has any typical speech impediments, and a Para-pro, along with a few other things. My email’s in my profile if you have any questions about what’s worked or hasn’t.
Primaflora, you are being an ass.
No, I wasn’t being an ass, I was being a parent who was thoroughly disgusted by rubystreak’s first post. Her second one is a hell of a lot more reasonable and if she had posted that yesterday and said why she felt what was suggested was teaching her specific student learned helplessness my response would have been different. The second post makes some sense – the first one to me reeks of blame the student. But that’s probably my learned kneejerk reaction to teachers.
Primaflora, what the HELL are you talking about? The only mention I made of the student in my first post to this thread is “Yes, he can do his work.” He is not impaired in reading or writing. How does that “reek of blame” to you? If every professional and relative involved, plus observations of the kid, all point to the fact that he can do the work, then what problem can you possibly have with me saying so? And how can you see negativity directed at the kid from me?
You are trying to justify your own unwarranted, defensive, ad hominem response to me. You are fabricating in both your Pit posts. In your first post, you accuse me of discouting you and auliya specifically, which I did not, and discounting all the info I have on the kid and on Asperger’s as “scraps of information.” In your second, you attribute to me blame of the kid, which I defy you to support with textual evidence.
That’s about the size of it, and that is called “being an ass.”
I don’t blame the kid for playing helpless; I blame all the adults that have let themselves be manipulated into enabling that helplessness. I have NEVER said otherwise. In the thread on IMO, I did say that the kid’s mother has stated that the kid will pull any number of tricks to get out of doing work and that she directed the teachers not to be fooled by him, but that’s not coming from me. My only goal is to educate him as best I can and to the best of his actual ability. When he tries to avoid work he’s just being a kid, and it’s up to me to know how much of that is Asperger’s and how much is just him being 12, which is why I posted to the thread. The advice I got muddied the difference quite a bit, and I finally cleared it up for myself. No blame involved or necessary, onto the kid OR onto me.
I don’t expect kindness in the Pit, but reading comprehension and accurate attribution of sentiment would be nice.
You WERE being an ass when you wrote:
“That’s a fucking bullshit interpretation of the DSM.”
“Ah, fuck it. It’s crap like this from teachers who fucking know it all based on scraps of knowledge that led me to homeschool.”
“Bollocks. Complete and utter bollocks.”
Rubystreak posted to the original thread looking for knowledge on a student with Asperger’s. You have treated her as above.
Someone has done you and your child wrong, but it wasn’t Rubystreak.
Whistlepig
p.s. Rubystreak, my email is in my profile. I’d love to be of assistance, just drop me a message.
I guess your initial requestin the other thread was asking people with experience with AS to offer their advice on a student you have who is diagnosed with AS. When people did offer advice (from professional and a personal viewpoints) you came into this thread and slammed that advice and the people who gave it, claimed the child was deliberately manipulative (if you had a clue about AS you know how ridiculous that statement is) and by making accommodations for his disability you are contributing to his “learned helplessness”.
As far as the mother and her superior knowledge of the child - I know a family who consistently punished two little girls for being naughty - there was nothing wrong with them, they were just naughty little girls and they would learn. Once they got to school they were identified as intellectually impaired and with autistic disorder. Don’t always assume a parent understands what is going on with a child, especially when they look normal and on occasions act normal.
Try to get your head around the concept that “ability” and classroom performance in AS can mean two different things for an AS child. This why Primaflora was so upset, both she and I have higly gifted kids who are also diagnosed with AS, and we have had to deal with the attitude you are displying here in real life, with teachers who cannot reconcile disability with high intellectual ability.
If you are a teacher I am amazed you have no in service training available for dealing with AS kids - if you did you might understand the disorder at least a bit - your posts to this board on the subject show true ignorance. I obviously don’t know what is in his IEP, or if he has diagnoses besides AS, but I do know that any school psych who has contributed to an AS child’s IEP by suggesting the child is not performing in a “normal fashion” for the reasons you are giving here is as ignorant of AS and it’s implications as you are
However, in the interest of fighting such ignorance - here is a documant that may well give you lots of information and assistance in dealing with your student.
And I must remember… preview reply…preview reply…
My apologies for the typos I have let through this morning
Which I have since admitted was my first mistake. In my overeagerness to fight my ignorance about AS, I asked for advice on a message board. I have since flogged myself with a wet noodle as punishment and vowed never to do so again.
Not all of it, only the parts that told me I should spoonfeed this kid in ways that are counterproductive to his development. Many parts of that thread were interesting and enlightening, but much of the advice was unsound, and some of the people giving it were not qualified to do so.
Wow, reading comprehension skills abound here. We will make accommodations for his disability. OF COURSE we will; even if we were, as you claim, unwilling to do so, the law would require it of us. Not, however, the ones recommended on the IMO thread. HIS MOTHER says he can do the work, ONLY with the modifications in the IEP, not a comprehensive propping up as he would have of us. She is the one who introduced the idea of his manipulation and learned helplessness into this discussion. Note that when I first posted to the thread in IMO, I was not sure why he was behaving as he was, so I asked for insight. I did not cast aspersions on the child or make any assumptions. I later got more info, in the form of an IEP and his mother’s input.
I think you are giving this child far too little credit. Yes, he has Asperger’s, which make social interactions difficult, but he’s also quite bright. If saying, “I can’t do it!” has, in the past, gotten it done for him, is it so hard to believe that he’d learn to say it early and often?
How arrogant of you to think you know this child better than his own mother. She felt so strongly that her son could work to a higher potential that she switched his school. I trust her when she says that her son can do more than he claims he can; when I had a talk with him about taking notes, guess what? The thing he claimed he couldn’t do, he did. What do you make of that?
If I were your child’s teacher and said the above to you about your kid-- if I told you I knew more about your kid than you did, you’d probably tell me I was an arrogant asshole, and you’d be right. If the shoe were on the other foot and I were contradicting your desires for your child’s education, I’d be just another moronic teacher who disregarded your wishes for you child. Sorry, but I am going to at least dignify the mother’s impression of her kid until she’s proven wrong. So far, she’s been right, small wonder.
When you say it so nice like that, it’s hard not to.:rolleyes: You do realize that I am a trained professional here and I do know that, even with kids who don’t have Asperger’s, ability and performance are often not correlated. My job is to get the kid to work up to his ability, and coddling him ain’t the way to do it. Can YOU wrap your head around THAT? His mother advocates a firm approach across the board, and it seems to be working. Why should I listen to you then, huh?
You are so insulting here I probably shouldn’t even reply to you, because you clearly you refuse to understand that I want what’s best for this kid, as does his mother, his special ed teacher, and the other teachers on the team. That’s why I posted to that bullshit thread in the first place, out of concern. No one wants to be mean to him, not provide him needed services or help, or not recognize his limitations. What I’m saying is, his idea of what his limits are and what his actual limits are ARE different, and he needs to be challenged more than he has been. We are all willing to modify our approach to fit him best, but doing it all for him isn’t the way to go.
Why you think I am being hard on him, blaming him, or planning to punish him for a disability, is beyond me, except maybe it’s misplaced anger at other teachers. Taking it out on me may be fine sport for you, but it’s wrongheaded and I wish you’d knock it off.
Because your kid has AS, I’m sure you think every teacher should be trained on it, as well as parents who have kids with OCD, ADD and ADHD (some training is provided for that b/c it’s so common), bipolar disorder, autism, sensory impairments, and a whole host of other issues kids can have. Actually, they train us on a case by case basis. We did finally get a packet of info and a briefing about it, so I do understand it better. That’s why I now know some of the advice I got was bunk.
First of all, if you want to fight ignorance, don’t be so nasty when someone says something you think is wrong. If you want to school me, do it without the bitchiness. Unless you just want to beat up on me, in which case, please proceed as you have.
Yes, when I first came to the board, I was ignorant, which is why I asked questions. Want to flog me for that, on the SDMB? 'Cause that’s what it’s here for. People purveying bad advice were perpetuating ignorance, which is what the OP said. Have no problem with that, do you? Or with the people claiming to have AS who have no diagnosis? Why not bitch at them for muddying the waters about what AS is and how it should be addressed?
OK, so when I first posted I didn’t know much about AS. The school and parent have since educated me, and I reported what they said. So exactly where did I show this “true ignorance” in this thread? When I told you what these people said, which you disagree with for reasons of your own? Please, point out the specific things that I said that you think are false. Not things his mother said, which I feel I should credit since they are from the person who knows him best, but things I said that you think are just factually wrong. I’m really curious.
I’m glad I found a true expert on AS, moreso than the kid’s mom and moreso than a trained psychologist. In fact, I’m really not sure what the hell you’re talking about. Why does this word “normal” keep popping up? You and Primaflora have used it but I never have.
The kid’s behavior ala learned helplessness IS actually quite normal for many kids his age, with or without Asperger’s; kids with learning challenges often do what he has done, which is fall back on the disability as a way to get out of doing work. Ask any special ed teacher if this isn’t true. No one doubts that aspects of school are hard for him; this doesn’t mean he shouldn’t try. Yes, he has trouble with handwriting and taking notes, but he will get help with that (I NEVER said he wouldn’t, only that I wouldn’t let him entirely opt out of note-taking), and he will be trying to work with it and practice. He hasn’t had much practice at it because of people who have let his disability define him. No one wants that, right?
In the past, teachers who have allowed him to coast have done so out of laziness (it’s easier to do it for him than to motivate him), pity (which is just wrong), or some misguided attempt to help him. I’d think you’d find that an insulting way to deal with someone who has AS. We’d rather find out exactly what he can do rather than let him to as little as possible. What’s your problem with that?
I feel like you and Primaflora are attacking me personally due to some misplaced, reflexive dislike of teachers. His mother, his other teachers and I won’t let the AS be a reason for him not to try in school. Apparently there is a line between what challenges the AS poses and what he himself puts up as a barrier to his own performance. Figuring out exactly where that boundary is will take time, but it’s not where he says it is. Is that so impossible for you to believe? You seem to want us to let the AS allow him to refuse to work up to his ability. And you say I’m not being fair to him. Right.
Have you read anything I have said or linked to in this thread or the other? My point is the same - you show little understanding of what Aspergers syndrome is about, the “you can do it if you try” is typical of teachers and others, including parents, who do not understand the nature of the disorder.
How misguided are you to interpret what I said as some sort of attack on the parent - I gave an example of how the impairment of ASDs can be misjudged even by those who know the child best.
Listen to who you like, and do what you like, but goodness sake get some understanding of Aspergers syndrome. Nowhere in your tirade against the advice you were given in the other thread have you indicated any understanding of the cognitive deficits in AS, how they may manifest in a child and affect that child’s learning.
Well I am glad you are now educated about AS in the 4 days or so since you first posted requesting advice. You will therefore understand that kids with Aspergers are often thought to be exhibiting “learned helplessness” (the old “they can do it if they try”) (out of curiosity, who decided this was what was happening in this child’s case?) for the reason’s I have raised before - people who are not familiar with disorder have a hard time understanding that an apparently able child has a learning disability - which is of course is the consequence of having Aspergers syndrome . Your insistence that it is just a social disability is one area that your ignorance shows. AS is a pervasive development disorder, with the emphasis on pervasive - it affects all areas of the individuals life. Your acceptence of the mothers description of the child as being “manipulative” is another. Please read up and understand theory of mind deficits and the repercussions on individuals with AS - I don’t think here is the appropriate place for me to give a lecture on it.
And yes, before you make some other snide and nasty comment, I have given lectures to teachers on the manifestation of Aspergers syndrome in students.
On the other handRubystreak, you could be perfectly correct - your student could be manipulative, have learned helplessness, have no cognitive problems at all, be fine in all areas other than social interaction, and not have Aspergers syndrome at all - as you are aware there are lots of misdiagnoses out there.
Then how do you account for the fact that he has since shown that he can do it, to some extent? I realize that some AS kids are dysgraphic, but with some individual direction, he can do it. He previously simply, flat-out refused to take notes at all. If he does what he can, the special ed teacher will supplement him with the rest. What is your problem with having him try? He’s not going to be punished if his handwriting is bad, or if he needs extra help getting the notes down.
But her assertions, combined with his responsiveness to teachers expecting him to try, make me think that she DOES know what she’s talking about, to some extent. She may be being too hard on him, in which case, time will tell. In the mean time, shouldn’t I try it her way first?
I am trying to learn. Being sworn at, insulted, and roundly condemned isn’t going to encourage me to get that understanding from YOU. I did get some faulty advice on the other thread, a fact you totally ignore in your lambasting of me. There were people over there claiming to have AS who didn’t, and you don’t seem to mind THAT ignorance.
I’m more educated about it than someone who hasn’t been diagnosed with it, and who really only knows what s/he has read on these threads. That’s all I was saying. I went into that IMO thread knowing nothing, and now I know a little bit.
His mother. She said he will resort to all sorts of things to avoid trying, but when treated in a firm manner, he will try and can do more than he claims.
I never said JUST. Again, you put words in my mouth.
Believe me, I’d be the first person to doubt the mother if what she said ran totally contrary to what I’ve seen. It hasn’t. She said to tell him what we expect him to do, and he will do it. She has been right, so far. Don’t forget that he also gets services from the resource room, so he isn’t losing anything by TRYING to write. If anything, he’s getting practice and seeming more in tune with the other kids.
No, I think you have yourself and me confused. YOU are the one making snide and nasty remarks, not only here, where they belong, but on IMO, where it’s not OK. If you could keep a civil tongue in your head, I might be able to learn from you. As it is, I’m getting to the point where I never want to read another post of yours, which is counterproductive to the aim of Fighting Ignorance, no?
Oh, for fuck’s sake! Listen carefully, for this is the umpteenth and LAST time I’m going to say this: I never said he was being manipulative, his mother did. He hasn’t ever tried to manipulate me, he just refused to take notes at first (and denied that I gave any) but has since decided to try after all. His mother warned us that he could resort to manipulation, and to continue to expect him to make an effort. I have yet to see the behaviors she describes so I can’t say either way, but it wouldn’t shock me for a kid with a classification to try to get out of doing work. Nor would it shock me that a mother is wrong about her kid’s ability to achieve, but I think it behooves me to try it her way first.
I want to do right by this kid. If his mother is wrong about him, then in a short time that will be apparent and I will do what I have to do to help him. Yelling at me and trying to make me feel like an idiot isn’t going to help me do this. Maybe back off with the hostility? I’m not your enemy or this kid’s. I’m an ignorant person who is getting conflicting information from several different sources who wants to do the right thing. OK?
This is from a site on teaching kids with Asperger’s which says:
“Children with AS can sometimes be stubborn; they need firm expectations and a structured program that teaches them that compliance with rules leads to positive reinforcement (this kind of program motivates the child with AS to be productive, thus enhancing self-esteem and lowering stress levels, because the child sees himself as competent)”
This is what the mom has been saying. This is what I’ve been trying to do. Can we get off this now? This thread is getting a bit much.