# I think I may be changing to an anti abortion (pro life) stance **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 8, 2015, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326 "2015-08-08T17:32:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/1 "2015-08-08T17:32:07Z")
I’ve long held the view that I disagree with abortion but that it is a woman’s body/woman’s right. A large part of this thinking was historical, that in the past women were dependent on men financially and otherwise, I am talking like 50 years ago. Since then women have made a large amount of progress and now it is quite easy for a woman to live independently. If a woman gets pregnant I think she should keep (deliver) the baby. If she wants no financial help from the father or if none is available, she should receive government assistance financially to help her carry and deliver the child and any and all expenses related to that. I do not know how you would legislate that, I am only talking conceptually. The child could be adopted if need be. Personally, I am in favor of open adoptions. If the woman chooses to keep the child and does not have the necessary finances, again, she receives financial assistance. Again, this is only a concept, I am not sure how you legislate that. I have no problem with birth control or the morning after pill. These are my comments/opinions. My comments/opinions are not meant to blame or judge anyone. I am open minded to other opinions and after discussion may change my position. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/2 "2015-08-08T17:37:39Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > If a woman gets pregnant I think she should keep (deliver) the baby. I don’t think she should have to if she doesn’t want to. So, how do we resolve this disagreement? ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/3 "2015-08-08T17:51:16Z")
If a woman feels she is unable to be a parent and is unable to give a child over to strangers, what should she do? Do you agree with adoption by gays, or only by the “right” people (straight married couples) ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/4 "2015-08-08T17:53:27Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I don’t think she should have to if she doesn’t want to. > > So, how do we resolve this disagreement? Wow, this is the first time, I think, we have been opposite on a political opinion, and, in this case I am taking the traditionally conservative opinion and you the traditionally liberal opinion. My answer: 1- Once a baby is involved, even if it is not delivered yet, then the woman’s choice is no longer relevant. I know that sounds harsh but I don’t know any other way to say it and get my point across. I am not allways very diplomatic, sometime by choice and sometimes because more diplomatic language does not occur to me. This situation is the second category. My intention is not to purposely offend anyone. I am simply stating my opinion. 2- We resolve it by taking it back to court. If it were 1973 again I would still support Roe v Wade but a woman can live independently of a man now so the circumstances are different in 2015 than 1973. 3- I do not consider an unborn baby to be 100% fully human but I do think it is more than just a “clump of cells”. I think this is a category that is very hard to make any sort of moral classification. Both sides have good points to support their opinion. At the end of it however I am pro life. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/5 "2015-08-08T17:58:54Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > If a woman feels she is unable to be a parent and is unable to give a child over to strangers, what should she do? A very good, very solid point. But just because it is a difficult situation does not change my opinion. That’s one of the reasons why I favor open adoption. I know it is very difficult to give a child to strangers. I am not just saying I agree with that statement, I actually really agree with you here. But, life is sometimes difficult. > [@](#): > > Do you agree with adoption by gays, or only by the “right” people (straight married couples) Any adult/adults who are financially capable and generally responsible human beings (I am not sure how to quantify that, it’s a concept only) would be eligible to adopt the child. ---
**Author:** ![davida03801](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5e925/32.png) [@davida03801](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davida03801)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/6 "2015-08-08T18:09:23Z")
A conundrum for sure. Back in the day I was all for abortion anytime, anywhere. That is till I became a father and held my first child a minute or so after birth. That changed me, not right away, but for sure it started the process. Now I have no issue for abortion for months 1-2-3-4. Late term abortion in months 7-8-9 disturbs me a great deal. In between I just don’t know. Also since the question was asked, no issue with adoption by gays. ---
**Author:** ![PlaceboTarget](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/placebotarget/32/1073_2.png) [@PlaceboTarget](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlaceboTarget)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/7 "2015-08-08T18:14:54Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Once a baby is involved, even if it is not delivered yet, then the woman’s choice is no longer relevant. I’m not so sure about it. What if the woman has been raped? ---
**Author:** ![nate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nate/32/13085_2.png) [@nate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nate)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/8 "2015-08-08T18:17:28Z")
I lean liberal and I’m an atheist, but I’ve slowly switched positions on abortion too. I used to be pro-choice, but after having kids of my own my views slowly changed to now where I pretty much equate abortion to murder. Logically, to me, there is a big bold line between an unfertilized and fertilized egg and that’s where I choose to believe life begins, and so should that life’s rights. I believe birth control that prevents fertilization should be given out like candy and free to anyone that wants it, but once you’re pregnant it’s your responsibility to ensure that baby is born, just like it is your responsibility that your infant survives. I don’t see much of a difference. ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/9 "2015-08-08T18:20:07Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > […] Once a baby is involved, even if it is not delivered yet, then the woman’s choice is no longer relevant. […] I think this statement amounts to playing with words to manipulate opinions. “Baby” means the birth has happened. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/10 "2015-08-08T18:23:23Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I’ve long held the view that I disagree with abortion but that it is a woman’s body/woman’s right. A large part of this thinking was historical, that in the past women were dependent on men financially and otherwise, I am talking like 50 years ago. Since then women have made a large amount of progress and now it is quite easy for a woman to live independently. > > If a woman gets pregnant I think she should keep (deliver) the baby. If she wants no financial help from the father or if none is available, she should receive government assistance financially to help her carry and deliver the child and any and all expenses related to that. I do not know how you would legislate that, I am only talking conceptually. I am surprised that your argument seems to focus entirely on the financial side of the decision. Are you saying that as long as the government ensures that having a child does not put the mother in a financially unsustainable situation the decision whether or not to have it should be taken out of the mother’s hands? Also we should talk about your definition of an abortion. You say you are ok with the morning after pill. To many pro-lifers that pill causes an abortion. So after what duration of pregnancy does ending the pregnancy represent an abotion to you? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/11 "2015-08-08T18:24:41Z")
> [@PlaceboTarget](#): > > I’m not so sure about it. What if the woman has been raped? rape or potential harm to the mother and an abortion is ok with me > [@Napier](#): > > I think this statement amounts to playing with words to manipulate opinions. “Baby” means the birth has happened. Well, that is not my intention. I view the situation as somewhere between clump of cells and 100% fully human. The language/classification is difficult but I think it can still be discussed and analyzed rationally. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/12 "2015-08-08T18:26:18Z")
> [@nate](#): > > I lean liberal and I’m an atheist, but I’ve slowly switched positions on abortion too. I used to be pro-choice, but after having kids of my own my views slowly changed to now where I pretty much equate abortion to murder. Logically, to me, there is a big bold line between an unfertilized and fertilized egg and that’s where I choose to believe life begins, and so should that life’s rights. I believe birth control that prevents fertilization should be given out like candy and free to anyone that wants it, but once you’re pregnant it’s your responsibility to ensure that baby is born, just like it is your responsibility that your infant survives. I don’t see much of a difference. I’m assuming you’re male. Correct me if I’m wrong. Once a woman is pregnant, why is it “her” responsibility that the baby be born? Does the sperm donor have no responsibility at all? Or only in certain cases? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/13 "2015-08-08T18:30:42Z")
> [@nate](#): > > Logically, to me, there is a big bold line between an unfertilized and fertilized egg and that’s where I choose to believe life begins, and so should that life’s rights. I believe birth control that prevents fertilization should be given out like candy and free to anyone that wants it… Where doe the morning after pill fall along this spectrum? (I’m asking because I do not Know) > [@Hiker](#): > > I am surprised that your argument seems to focus entirely on the financial side of the decision. Are you saying that as long as the government ensures that having a child does not put the mother in a financially unsustainable situation the decision whether or not to have it should be taken out of the mother’s hands? > > Also we should talk about your definition of an abortion. You say you are ok with the morning after pill. To many pro-lifers that pill causes an abortion. So after what duration of pregnancy does ending the pregnancy represent an abortion to you? To your first point, I am simply saying that finances or other hardship is not sufficient to me to have an abortion. I am talking in broad general concepts in order to explore the topic. I am open to listening to any practical details that make the situation harder in real life than it is in theory. As far as the morning after pill, I do not know enough information but my uninformed opinion is once the unborn child has a heartbeat, then it needs to be kept and delivered. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/14 "2015-08-08T18:32:53Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > I’m assuming you’re male. Correct me if I’m wrong. > > Once a woman is pregnant, why is it “her” responsibility that the baby be born? Does the sperm donor have no responsibility at all? Or only in certain cases? He should have just as much responsibility but there will be (some few) cases where that is not possible for one reason or another. The woman should then receive help from other sources. Pro life groups put a lot of money into politics. If abortions were no longer an option, then perhaps that money could go to child care. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/15 "2015-08-08T18:33:32Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Once a woman is pregnant, why is it “her” responsibility that the baby be born? Does the sperm donor have no responsibility at all? Or only in certain cases? How could it be the man’s responsibility to ensure that a baby is born? If he’s at odds with the mother, his only recourse to ensure the baby is born anyway involves icky things like unjust imprisonment of the woman to keep her from being able to seek an abortion. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/16 "2015-08-08T18:36:15Z")
> [@nate](#): > > Logically, to me, there is a big bold line between an unfertilized and fertilized egg and that’s where I choose to believe life begins, and so should that life’s rights. Logically, I have trouble considering a fertilized egg to be a person when it can still split and become two separate individuals (identical twins). ---
**Author:** ![Hank\_Beecher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hank_beecher/32/7275_2.png) [@Hank\_Beecher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hank_Beecher)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/17 "2015-08-08T18:36:58Z")
I am only in favor of the right to abortion in cases where the mother’s health is at risk of being substantially affected. \* \*This includes all pregnancies. I consider it immoral to terminate a pregnancy for reasons like inconvenience to one’s lifestyle. It might sound harsh, but I do consider an unborn child to be a person. But only a nascent person, who’s future well-being is outweighed by the serious health concerns of an existing fully formed human, unless she makes the choice to place the child’s needs above her own and take the health risks involved in growing it to term inside her body and delivering it. Like all other serious health issues, this should be left entirely in the legal realm of the patient/doctor relationship. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/18 "2015-08-08T18:46:14Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Wow, this is the first time, I think, we have been opposite on a political opinion, and, in this case I am taking the traditionally conservative opinion and you the traditionally liberal opinion. I take the traditionally “liberal” side on lots of things. > [@](#): > > My answer: > > 1- Once a baby is involved, even if it is not delivered yet, then the woman’s choice is no longer relevant. I know that sounds harsh but I don’t know any other way to say it and get my point across. I am not allways very diplomatic, sometime by choice and sometimes because more diplomatic language does not occur to me. This situation is the second category. My intention is not to purposely offend anyone. I am simply stating my opinion. That’s not really an answer, other than an “opinion” is an answer. WHY is the woman’s choice no longer relevant? Unless you grant the fetus (it’s not a “baby”) the right of personhood, then you’re just setting an arbitrary determinant on something that is none of your business. > [@](#): > > 2- We resolve it by taking it back to court. If it were 1973 again I would still support Roe v Wade but a woman can live independently of a man now so the circumstances are different in 2015 than 1973. I’ve always been more in favor of legislative solutions rather then judicial ones. At least where the constitution is silent, as it is on abortion. > [@](#): > > 3- I do not consider an unborn baby to be 100% fully human but I do think it is more than just a “clump of cells”. I think this is a category that is very hard to make any sort of moral classification. Both sides have good points to support their opinion. At the end of it however I am pro life. OK, now you’re getting somewhere. My own take, informed strictly by science, is that becoming human is a process, not an event. The fertilized egg isn’t any more a person than a skin cell is. There is no “there” there, in a fertilized egg. Like a brain dead person, we can see that there is no consciousness at all. At some point, that consciousness comes into being, but we don’t really know when other than to say it is at least after the brain is formed, and more likely when brain waves are present. So, yes, the blastocyst is “just a clump of cells” and so is an embryo and so is a fetus until some point where the fetus shows signs of a functioning brain. If you truly believe that a fertilized egg is a “full human being” or at least deserving of the right to life that a full human being has, then anti-abortion is the correct stance for you. Just be sure of exactly how that belief is informed. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/19 "2015-08-08T18:46:18Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > As far as the morning after pill, I do not know enough information but my uninformed opinion is once the unborn child has a heartbeat, then it needs to be kept and delivered. There is nothing wrong with lacking information. I am not an expert, but I have done a little reading. This is what I found: \*\*Fertilisation \*\*(a.k.a. conception) happens 12-24 hours after ovulation. Conservative pro-lifers (e.g. the Roman Catholic church) have this as the beginning of pregnancy. \*\*Implantation \*\*occurs five or six days later. In my country (Germany) the legal definition of pregnancy begins here. The morning after pill can prevent implantation. Hence the entire Hobby Lobby debate. A \*\*heartbeat \*\*can be measured after about six weeks of pregnancy. (It should be noted that the fetus at this time does not yet have a brain.) ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326/20 "2015-08-08T18:57:13Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I take the traditionally “liberal” side on lots of things. Really? On what other matters besides this one? > [@](#): > > That’s not really an answer, other than an “opinion” is an answer. WHY is the woman’s choice no longer relevant? Unless you grant the fetus (it’s not a “baby”) the right of personhood, then you’re just setting an arbitrary determinant on something that is none of your business. I am granting the fetus the status of personhood. > [@](#): > > OK, now you’re getting somewhere. My own take, informed strictly by science, is that becoming human is a process, not an event. The fertilized egg isn’t any more a person than a skin cell is. There is no “there” there, in a fertilized egg. Like a brain dead person, we can see that there is no consciousness at all. At some point, that consciousness comes into being, but we don’t really know when other than to say it is at least after the brain is formed, and more likely when brain waves are present. > > So, yes, the blastocyst is “just a clump of cells” and so is an embryo and so is a fetus until some point where the fetus shows signs of a functioning brain. > > If you truly believe that a fertilized egg is a “full human being” or at least deserving of the right to life that a full human being has, then anti-abortion is the correct stance for you. Just be sure of exactly how that belief is informed. I’d say a “human life” begins when you have a heart beat, or when the advance parts of a human brain (frontal lobe) are present. Whichever come first. I assume it’s heartbeat. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-think-i-may-be-changing-to-an-anti-abortion-pro-life-stance/727326.md?page=2)